The Argument

When the Supreme Court rejected affirmative action at colleges and universities in 2023, finding that Harvard and the University of North Carolina practiced race-based discrimination against Asian American students, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote, "eliminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it." 
The case, decided along ideological lines, caused a stir among progressives.
But was this discrimination the inevitable consequence of affirmative action policies? Or did it simply give cover to people with genuinely racist beliefs?
“The core problem with affirmative action — how it was being practiced, particularly at Harvard — is that they were just being racist to Asians … What was happening was not just like, ‘Oh, we’re all well-meaning people trying to improve [society]. These people had racist views about Asian Americans,” declared Jerusalem Demsas in The Argument’s premiere podcast episode.
In this heated conversation, Matthew Yglesias and Jerusalem tackled affirmative action, an increasingly unpopular policy. And the Harvard case sits at the heart of the debate.
“In a basic way,” lamented Matt, “it is not a good idea to be slotting people into racial and ethnic categories and judging them on that basis. It's not fair to people, and it's not healthy for society.”
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You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. 
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Further reading:
“Diversifying Society’s Leaders? The Determinants and Causal Effects of Admission to Highly Selective Private Colleges” by Raj Chetty, David J. Deming, and John N. Friedman
“Breaking Systemic Barriers: Being Black in the Aquatic Sciences and Related Fields” by Lauren Pharr
“Smartphones, Online Music Streaming, and Traffic Fatalities” by Vishal R. Patel, Christopher M. Worsham, Michael Liu, and Anupam B. Jena
Corrections:
05:36 - Matt says “LSAT flunk rates” when he means “bar exam flunk rates.”
07:06 - Jerusalem says “data from Sander’s” when she means “data from Sander’s critics.”
18:46 - Jerusalem says Raj Chetty’s data shows that attending an elite school “doubles” the likelihood of reaching the top income quintile when she means “increases by 50%.”
For more detailed show notes, visit TheArgumentMag.com
(Photo: Harold M. Lambert/Archival Photos via Getty Images)
The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Watch the official trailer for The Argument — a new podcast cohosted by Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias.
Has affirmative action gone too far? Should we abolish internet anonymity? Is liberal hypocrisy worth defending?
Welcome to The Argument, a weekly podcast from Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias, where two friends argue about politics, policy, and whatever else is on their minds.
This is a debate show for people who want the nitty-gritty without the typical screaming matches or softball interviews. Each week, one host argues a distinctive point of view — armed with facts and research, not just pundit bluster — and then Matthew and Jerusalem hash it out.
New episodes post every Thursday, starting April 9.
You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts
The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Are men naturally promiscuous and drawn to younger women? Are women obsessed with tall, older, rich men? Dating discourse is littered with pop evolutionary psychology that makes broad claims about how men and women are under a thin veneer of scientific credibility. But how much of it is backed by real science?
In this episode of The Argument, host Jerusalem Demsas interviews UC Davis psychology professor Paul Eastwick about his new book, Bonded by Evolution: The New Science of Love and Connection. Eastwick breaks down some of the memes and myths about what evolutionary psychology really says about attraction and how we fall for each other.
The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.
For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts
The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.
The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Economists love to say there are no free lunches. Jennifer Doleac thinks criminal justice is one of the rare places where that’s wrong.
In this episode, host and Editor of The Argument, Jerusalem Demsas talks with Doleac—economist and author of The Science of Second Chances—about what happens when you treat crime policy like an empirical problem instead of a morality play. 
Rejecting the false choice of being "tough on crime" or "soft on crime," Doleac surfaces a surprising number of reforms that can reduce crime and make the system more fair.
The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.
We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].
For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts
The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Trump didn’t just reshape the GOP—he may have ended what we used to call “the conservative movement.” 
New York Times columnist Ross Douthat joins host Jerusalem Demsas to map the new right: the collapse of fusionism, the rise of nationalism, and a media ecosystem where influencers matter more than institutions.
Then they argue about what liberalism can and can’t solve. Can abundance and faster growth stabilize democracy, or are the deeper crises cultural, spiritual, and demographic in ways GDP can’t fix? 
The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.
We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected].
For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts
The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.

The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com