Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor join the show to discuss their new book End Times Fascism: And the Fight For the Living World, an investigation into the apocalyptic thinking of the American contemporary right. In part one, they discuss the rise of Christian Nationalism to political power in the United States, why Zionists from different religious backgrounds want to remove Palestinians from their homes for very different reasons, and how religious apocalyptic thinking inverts morality and makes human suffering seem good and necessary to bring about the end of the world.

They talk about how the people rising to power seem to be the most manic and cartoonish, how far-right movements scapegoat outgroups like immigrants, and why fascism capitalizes on nostalgia for better times–even if that nostalgia is for a reality that wasn’t ever quite real.
SOURCE
End Times Fascism: And the Fight for the Living World
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week is part two with Makelle Bistline, one of polygamist cult leader Sam Bateman’s former wives who helped take him down from the inside. She returns to share how she finally relented and became Bateman’s 22nd wife after he wore down her resistance with pressure and isolation, how Bateman systematically married all the women and girls in her family, and when she began to notice Sam's troubling behavior with the underage girls.

Makelle explains how she began secretly collaborating with Dr. Christine Marie (Lola’s mom) to collect evidence for the authorities, and what it was like living through the FBI raid that changed everything. She also discusses how her friendship with Nomz Bistline has evolved through this experience, why she chose not to appear in the Netflix documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, and how she's doing now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week’s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman–ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola’s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs’ teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet.

Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she’d been taught about the outside world, the ways she resisted Bateman’s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she’ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola’s mom and passing evidence to authorities.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.
Felicia shares more about Larry’s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she’s built for herself since—as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors one can point to in court to establish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they’ve just experienced something traumatic.
SOURCES
Felicia Rosario Consulting
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA’s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways—all in the name of patriotism and “fighting communism.”
Stephen describes Gottlieb’s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word “brainwashing” can’t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.
Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).
SOURCES
Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.