Betrayal Trauma Recovery

When Anne Blythe, M.Ed. first started podcasting years ago, she searched, “how to set boundaries with my husband?”. In this episode Anne analyzes one of her old podcast episodes. To point out to her years ago self, all the victim blaming she experienced.

If you need support, see our Betrayal Trauma Group Session Schedule.

In this early podcast episode, Anne shares her very first attempts at healthy boundaries. She refers to a 12-step program, “addict behaviors”, and addiction. Now, of course, we understand that abuse is NOT addiction, addiction therapists do NOT help abuse victims find safety, and 12-step programs can be harmful to women in abusive relationships. To know if you’re experiencing abuse take my free quiz.

TRUE BOUNDARIES AREN’T ABOUT CONTROLLING OTHERS’ CHOICES

“Every time my husband was abusive towards me, I thought that my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were and how I was feeling and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND – MY STRUGGLE

Anne: It’s just me today. And I’m actually going to analyze in real time myself from years ago. You’ll hear me describe how I started my journey to set boundaries with my toxic ex. Despite my 12 step sponsor victim blaming me. Despite my 12 step group blaming me. So, if you are wondering how to set boundaries with a toxic ex, listening to this will give you some insight into my process. Of how I came to understand how to set boundaries with my ex.

I did S-Anon in the beginning of podcasting. It is a 12 step group for wives or ex wives of pornography addicts. I actually did an S-Anon group specific to my faith. SALifeline is this particular S-Anon groups name. And I was doing the 12 steps myself. I was actually a 12 step sponsor. And then I also facilitated a 12 step group.

You can hear that I talk about abuse, but I don’t quite understand it. This was before Betrayal Trauma Recovery existed. It was just a podcast. So way back then, I was podcasting in my basement. I hadn’t yet brought on coaches for our group sessions or individual sessions. And hadn’t created the Living Free Workshop. I was trying to figure all this out.

INITIAL MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND

Anne: Now, since this time, I have removed most of these episodes. I started podcasting in 2016, but if you look on Apple Podcasts, it looks like I haven’t been podcasting that long. Over time, I evolved and realized parts where I got it wrong. But I saved the audio recordings.

And that’s what you’re going to hear today. I actually altered my voice back then, because I was so scared. So hopefully you’ll hear the difference between me now and back then. And back then, I went by anon for anonymous instead of Anne. I actually, haven’t heard this recording in years. So, we’re going to go through this together. I’m a little nervous, but here we go.

From Years-Ago-Anne: So I didn’t know anything about boundaries before starting recovery. In fact, every time my husband abused me or every time he had a slip up, I thought my boundary was giving him a lecture. Literally, like a 40 minute lecture about how terrible things were, how I was feeling, and what he should do. I thought that’s what boundaries were.

Anne: So my first thought is thank goodness that I stopped disguising my voice because I sound like a chipmunk. When I’m talking about my recovery, I was recovering from his addiction. At this point, I think, I’m not sure. Let’s keep listening and see what I say.

LEARNING TRUE BOUNDARIES BECAUSE OF HUSBAND’S ARREST

From Years-Ago-Anne: I have learned since then that is not what boundaries are at all. In fact, God was merciful to me, and he taught me about boundaries in an extremely traumatic way. My husband was arrested and given a court ordered, no contact order. That was my first boundary ever. God gave it. And then I had to decide what to do with that boundary, to keep it, to not keep it. And what that boundary meant.

I realized that my boundary is, keeping safe. And be safe while he continues to act out in this behavior. In my husband’s case, once he was arrested, he did not show any clear signs of recovery behaviors.

There were many things that he could have done. He could have texted every day, for example, and said, “What can I do today for the kids?” He did not choose to talk to my dad, apologize to my dad about some things. There were several things he could do legally.

Anne: At the time, I was so sad that he was not doing any of those things. https://www.btr.org/long-term-effects-of-emotional-abuse-in-relationships/I wanted our family to be together. I was not thinking about how to stop emotional abuse from my husband. And was so depressed about it. I could not see how my life would ever get better. And now listening to myself, I’m thinking, thank goodness. I’m so grateful that I did not get groomed, because in my vulnerable state. My husband groomed me at that time by doing any of those things? I’m pretty sure his manipulation would’ve absolutely trapped me again.

All right. What else did I say?

HUSBAND’S LACK OF RECOVERY, BEHAVIORS & MY KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES

From Years-Ago-Anne: He did not show any signs of that. He did not put forth a plan. “I realize this is what happened. I’m sorry, this is my plan for recovery. This is what I’m going to do to return to the house.” He never asked to return to the house. So, for me, there was no way that I could do that. Remove or amend the do not contact order to talk with him, because he was not showing any recovery behaviors.

Anne: When I say, he’s not showing any recovery behaviors here. I’m a little concerned for myself, because I’m thinking, are you just looking for him to check off some boxes? And again, just so grateful that he wasn’t checking boxes. That would have been really hard.

From Years-Ago-Anne: So what are boundaries? Boundaries are like fences between neighbors. They define the limits of a relationship. And provide safety and structure, and define appropriate and inappropriate engagement in the relationship. They delineate responses to inappropriate or unhealthy engagement or interactions.

So first, let’s define what boundaries are and are not. Boundaries are used to define the limits of the relationships. They are healthy responses to violations of self. Boundaries are in place as trust is rebuilt in relationships. Boundaries are protection against repeated harm. Boundaries are not punishments.

They are not methods of coercing or forcing behaviors. They are not a way to avoid dealing with pain. And boundaries are not used to emotionally disconnect or isolate.

MISOGYNISTIC VICTIM BLAMING TO MAKE WOMEN FEEL DEFECTIVE

From Years-Ago-Anne: So, when I was not practicing boundaries, my fear, my character defects of fear or control would crop up.

Anne: There’s some misogynistic victim blaming. I was convinced that my fear and desire to be safe was part of a character defect . So that’s why you can hear me say my character defects of fear or control would crop up. I was taught that I was defective and sick in 12 step. And that my fear was a result of my sickness.

The truth is that I was actually super brave. I’m willing to let go of control, because I was observing him from a safe distance at this time, and I was really brave. So having my sponsor tell me that I had this character defect of fear and control when that was not the case at all. I was brave, and I had let go completely.

Also, if I had any fear or desire to get to safety, it was because of his abuse. Not because I had some kind of character defect. So there, I can see that I still haven’t quite figured that out yet. All right, go on.

From Years-Ago-Anne: And rather than set a boundary for myself and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband. That I would turn to my sponsor, do recovery behaviors, surrender to God’s will, and do self care. I would turn toward my husband and try and make him be safe. I literally got down on my hands and knees and begged him to love me many times. He looked at me and said, “No I won’t.” Or I begged him to be kind, and he said, “No, I’m not going to be kind to you.”

RESISTING ABUSE IS NOT THE SAME AS BECOMING RESPONSIBLE

From Years-Ago-Anne: And that only put me in a further state of stress. He was abusing me, and instead of detaching from my abuser, setting a boundary, and getting myself to a safe place. I could just continue to be abused by trying to force my abuser to be kind.

Because boundaries are important and knowing how to set boundaries with my husband is important. The opposite is responsible for his behaviors or recovery. It is wise to self assess occasionally and determine whether you’re crossing the line into becoming responsible. Some warning signs that you may be crossing the line to becoming responsible for your husband’s behavior. They provide constant reminders of the recovery behaviors he should do.

Anne: Wow, I mean I was resisting abuse at the time. I wasn’t becoming responsible for his behavior. I was trying to find my way out of this. And do safety seeking behaviors, resisting the abuse. Resisting the abuse is not the same as “becoming responsible.”

MISGUIDED 12-STEP TEACHINGS HARM VICTIMS

Anne: I’m almost wondering right now with this misogynistic sort of codependent, 12 step for pornography addict stuff that I was being taught. If their intent was to get me to “back off of resisting the abuse.” Because if I stopped resisting the abuse, he could do what he wanted and still live in proximity to me. I don’t know. I need to think about that. Let’s see what else I say about this.

From Years-Ago-Anne: I did that constantly. And I didn’t realize that I was taking responsibility for his behavior. his anger, his abuse. I thought I was just “helping him.”

Anne: You didn’t realize that you were taking responsibility for his behavior because you weren’t. You were trying to get to safety. And resisting the abuse by trying to help him stop.

From Years-Ago-Anne: Experiencing consistent intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, absolutely.

Anne: Isn’t that just like the ultimate euphemism? Rather than receiving the right framework to understand this from 12 step. Due to their influence in my life, I was led to believe it was my fault. That I experienced consistent, intense emotional reactions to his lack of recovery behavior, rather than the truth. Which was that I’m experiencing consistent, intense, emotional reactions due to his emotional and psychological abuse.

There’s a huge difference in the way I was perceiving it then. And how I now see it.

REALIZING THE TRUTH ABOUT ABUSE & ADDICTION

From Years-Ago-Anne: When he would get into his rage or be irritable, I knew it was a lack of recovery behavior. I didn’t have words for it back then, but I knew, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” I would get so much fear and so much worry that my family would be destroyed. I worried that something super bad was going to happen, and so I would go into control mode.

Anne: Wow, wow, so women who are out there who thought of these behaviors as their lack of recovery behavior. Or their childhood trauma coming up, or their personality disorder, or something that might be the case. But for us, we experience it as abuse. So the reality is when he would go into his rage or be irritable. Back then I said, I knew it was his lack of recovery behavior.

Wow, I mean, I did mention the word abuse, but it was not his lack of recovery behavior that caused the fear. But it was this abuse that caused the fear that all these euphemisms are incredibly mind-bending, but these same euphemisms are used in couple therapy, addiction recovery and in churches. Nobody, I guess even me, wanted to call it abuse back then.

So here I am saying, “Oh no, something bad is coming.” And I get so much fear, and then I say, “I would go into control mode.” I blamed myself, rather than realizing I’m abused. I have so much fear for good reason. This fear is not due to my character defect. God gave me this fear, He is warning me. Something bad will happen, get to safety. I was also incorrectly interpreting that.

MISGUIDED ADVICE ABOUT COPING MECHANISMS & HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND

Anne: So 12 step was not telling me to get to safety at all. The only thing they’re doing is basically saying stop resisting the abuse. And I don’t think any woman in the world can stop resisting the abuse. There’s always going to be a way that she tries to figure out how to resist it, even if she can’t resist it overtly.

From Years-Ago-Anne: Punishing or shaming him into doing the things he has committed to do, basing your own commitment to recovery on whether or not he is doing his own recovery work, numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors.

Anne: Wow, so here I’m being taught that if I resist the abuse, I’m punishing or shaming him. That’s like the worst thing to say to a victim. You’re not punishing your abuser by resisting his abuse. You’re not shaming your abuser by resisting his abuse. And then basing your own commitment to recovery on whether he’s doing recovery work. I didn’t even need to be going to 12 step.

So for them to tell me like, you need to come to a 12 step, whether he does this. I don’t need to come to a 12 step at all, period. End of story. And then numbing out or disconnecting from your own emotions based on his behaviors. Since I don’t enjoy pain. I don’t think I’m going to look an abuse victim in the eye and tell her. Hey, when you’re in so much emotional pain that you can’t stand it.

BLAMING MYSELF EVEN THOUGH I WAS TRYING TO GET TO SAFETY

Anne: Too bad for you. Like for me, I tried not to numb or disconnect, but I needed a break from the pain. And so I would watch television. I would go out with my friends, like it’s okay to numb when the pain is so intense. That you can’t function. It’s okay to disconnect from your emotions for a minute. Oh, wow, this is really hard to listen to.

From Years-Ago-Anne: or controlling or manipulating. Now I did not know I was doing that at the time. I was. I just thought I was trying to serve my husband. And help him and express my needs, and there is nothing wrong with helping someone, or expressing your needs. Or stating to your husband what your needs are. My problem was that he was not safe in those moments and so I would be further abused.

Anne: I am so close, so close. I wasn’t safe in those moments. But instead, I think the cause is his lack of recovery behaviors, rather than realizing that the cause is his abuse. And 12 Step tells me that I’m controlling and trying to manipulate him. And I’m saying, I didn’t know I was doing it at a time. It’s because I wasn’t, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I was trying to get to safety by communicating with an abuser.

It would have been nice to know that at the time. But I am learning about boundaries with my husband. So let’s see what else I say about boundaries.

SETTING BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND

From Years-Ago-Anne: So good boundaries will help you avoid these types of responses. Your own triggers in recovery and emotional responses sometimes lead to unhealthy coping. This could include emotionally disconnecting, punishing, controlling, or micromanaging others behaviors.

Personal boundaries, will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of powerful emotional triggers. I wish I knew that then.

Anne: Oh, the things you don’t know now even, wow. Why is this such a process? Why is this such a process to understand what’s going on? My poor self. There’s a euphemism again for abuse, powerful, emotional triggers. Those are just emotional and psychological abuse. Personal boundaries will allow you to make healthy choices in the face of abuse.

And then they want you to avoid your “unhealthy coping,” which would be emotionally disconnecting. No, you definitely want to emotionally disconnect from emotional abuse. Punishing, which I guess is resisting the abuse. Like I’m not going to talk to the abuser. Controlling, trying to actually do something that will get you to safety.

Like not being in his presence anymore. Or micromanaging others behaviors. The thing about micromanaging is that in this context, you feel bad. They’re making it seem like I’ve got some sort of character defect. Rather than me realizing he’s not safe. So. Being in proximity to him will be harmful to me. But it’s not because I’m trying to micromanage anything. It’s because I don’t know what else to do. And I’m resisting the abuse. And I just want to be safe.

REFLECTING ON TRUST & DETACHMENT

From Years-Ago-Anne: I wish I had been in recovery, but I wasn’t. And I am genuinely sorry. And I am looking forward to steps eight and nine, so that I can make amends for those things. I’m actually genuinely embarrassed that I participated in those behaviors. When I honestly and authentically thought I was helping him.

Anne: So adding onto the pain of being an abuse victim. I have compounded this guilt that I wasn’t in recovery for my sickness. That I had been participating in these like awful behaviors that aren’t awful at all. I wasn’t doing anything wrong. Then I say that I’m looking forward to making amends for resisting abuse and seeking safety.

And then I’m embarrassed that I was resisting abuse. And back then, I thought I was authentically trying to help him stop his abuse, by setting boundaries. So I was resisting abuse in that effort. What else did I have to say back then?

From Years-Ago-Anne: Examples of personal boundary statements and setting boundaries with my husband are, I can choose my responses to his slips or relapses. I do not have to allow my trauma to control how I respond. Instead of punishing or hurting him, I will take care of myself in a healthy way.

When he has earned my trust, I will share with him my feelings and needs. This was my main problem, that I did not trust my husband, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable.

DEALING WITH A LACK OF TRUST

Anne: Another euphemism here, addict mode rather than abuse. So instead of saying the main problem was that he was abusive, and I didn’t trust him due to his abuse. Instead, I say, especially when he was in addict mode, when he was angry or irritable, which equates to abuse.

From Years-Ago-Anne: So I tried to make him trustworthy, to take responsibility for his actions. Or I tried to make him compassionate or kind, and that never worked. Instead, I needed to detach, set a boundary, take care of myself in a healthy way, and then see if he worked toward earning my trust.

Anne: The good news, I’m learning to set effective boundaries that I have perfected over the years. Now I’m completely safe. And I teach those in the Living Free Workshop. I was victim blamed. They told me that I was “allowing my trauma to control how I responded.” That was not happening.

I was interpreting it as some kind of character defect, rather than just seeing. Hey, I was resisting abuse. And I was doing the best I could, thank goodness.

Anne: It works, so I did that and that eventually got me to safety, even if I didn’t understand exactly what was happening. While being victim blamed in the process.

From Years-Ago-Anne: When I finally did that, let go, and observed from a distance to see if he would earn my trust again. He didn’t attempt to do that. From what I could tell, there were absolutely no attempts to earn back my trust.

EFFECTIVE BOUNDARY SETTING IS ESSENTIAL

From Years-Ago-Anne: Another one is that I can decide when and how I begin to trust him again. I will work on my own recovery, regardless of his commitment to his recovery. Instead of zoning out and emotionally disconnecting when I’m in pain, I will reach out and share with others in my life who are safe. I think that’s essential.

Also I would always reach out to my husband. I rarely zoned out or emotionally disconnected, but my husband wasn’t safe. So I reached out and tried to connect with someone who was emotionally unsafe, and that always put me in a very precarious position. I will choose not to be responsible for his choices.

And here’s one last example of a personal boundary statement with my husband. I can choose to love and accept myself even when his addiction affects the way I perceive myself.

Anne: The point of creating the Living Free Workshop was to explain effective boundaries in a way that was not victim blaming at all. That anyone enrolled could clearly see that all these things were due to his manipulation and lying, and that I wasn’t at fault for any of it.

Because as I explain, some of it is right on. The problem is I’m not identifying that the abuse is what’s causing me to react in the way I am. And my reactions are resistance to abuse, and that is healthy and good.

A PAINFUL STORY OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Anne: So I’m about to tell a story. That includes part of my faith, which is attending the temple. The temple is all about love. And an eternal family. And so when you hear me tell this story, we’ve just been to this worship service. That’s focused on how Christ helps us feel connected. And a few days before, we went to the temple when this incident occurred. Which you’re going to hear, happens.

But he hadn’t repaired in between. Also, before you hear the story, I hadn’t really come to grips with what he was doing here. Now I know that this was this flat out manipulation and psychological abuse. He was trying to mess with my head. But he wouldn’t just tell me openly what his intentions were or what was going on. He was trying to get me to react emotionally and psychologically abusively, because he had a goal in mind.

From Years-Ago-Anne: I’ve been thinking a lot about one night when my husband was extremely calm. He came to me and said, “I know you’ve asked me your whole marriage to tell you that you’re beautiful. And the reason I have not said that is because I don’t think you’re beautiful.”

So I should have detached right then. And I’m like, okay, he is very unsafe, but instead I decided to engage with him and fight him and say, that’s not true. You do think I’m beautiful. And then he said this, and this is the part that hurt me so deeply. He said, well, physically you’re beautiful, but your personality and who you are, make you ugly.

CONTINUING EMOTIONAL ABUSE & SETTING BOUNDARIES

From Years-Ago-Anne: Your face when you are scared or frightened, and your personality and the way you interact with me. And who you are from the inside is completely, I can’t ever tell you that you’re beautiful. And I was absolutely devastated. That is the beginning of things getting really bad for us, and he never repaired that.

There was never a time. In fact, we went to the temple, and we did sealings. I don’t know how long after that. And we went to the celestial room, and we were holding hands. I just could not do it. Because here was a man, who could not tell me that I was beautiful, who did not think that my soul was beautiful.

Even if he didn’t like my hair, or he thought I was a little overweight, he could not bring himself to tell me that I was beautiful. To him, that was just totally lying, and I thought, I can’t be with someone like this. I remember standing up in the celestial room and walking off in pain and hurt. Completely and totally hung out to dry by my husband, who seemed fine and had never tried to repair that.

That was before I had boundaries. Now, I know that I would have set a boundary. And said, okay, when I feel safe and when you can see me, and when your perceptions of me are not abusive. Because those perceptions in and of themselves, that’s what made him abusive, are the way he perceived me. He perceived me a certain way, that I was trying to hurt him, or that my questions were shaming or whatever. And really, that was what propagated the abuse.

ABUSERS LIE ON PURPOSE TO HARM

Anne: That’s what I thought back then, but now I actually don’t think that, I think he was lying. I think he was lying on purpose to harm me. To get me to react so that he’d have an excuse to do what he wanted to do. I’m not sure exactly what he was doing, but he was leaving the house at night to perhaps solicit prostitutes or maybe having an affair.

I’m not sure. Because he would leave, and then come home, and I wouldn’t know what was going on. But now I know that he was lying on purpose. He didn’t necessarily perceive me that way, but he wanted me to believe he did. Because that would hurt me more than knowing that he was lying.

From Years-Ago-Anne: I needed to set a boundary and learn how to set boundaries with my husband and tell him he was not abusive. It takes a long time, and that has never happened. So I’m still setting and learning about how to set boundaries now. I realized I had never felt emotionally connected. Like, there had never been a time in our marriage where I had initiated intimacy because I felt emotionally connected.

I was doing it just to keep, you know, just because I thought he would want to. Not because I felt this deep emotional connection. And my husband rarely, rarely initiated. And when he did, it was because he wanted to. Not because he felt emotionally connected with me in the last 10 months. My husband has not been safe enough for me to be with or even communicate with.

HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND: THE IMPORTANCE OF ENFORCING BOUNDARIES

From Years-Ago-Anne: So implementing, enforcing, boundaries with my husband is important, and that’s the hardest part. It’s easy to think about what boundaries you’re going to have, it’s easy to tell someone what your boundaries will be, but it’s very difficult to actually enforce them. Like I said, I did not have any boundaries before my husband’s arrest.

I was working toward figuring out what those were, and then God stepped in and said, Boom! This is gonna be your boundary, and I’m so grateful that he provided a safe means for my escape from my abuser. So addicts hate boundaries, and then they set boundaries, usually to disconnect or isolate. I sponsor a woman whose husband, when he is in addict mode, says, “My boundary is I’m leaving and I’m not coming back until tomorrow.”

That’s abandoning your spouse. That is emotionally disconnecting and enables him to practice his addiction. Enforcing the boundaries is the hardest part. I was lucky enough to have the police enforce my boundary that I didn’t even know I had for me. Or the boundary that God created for me.

My husband was not choosing to protect me or our family, and it has been destroyed. He filed for divorce on Monday. Of course, that’s not protecting our family either. He’s continuing down the path of destroying our family. And I’m very sad, very, very sad. But that doesn’t mean I will change my boundaries to contact someone. Who is so unsafe that they would destroy my family. So, boundaries right now are essential for me.

CHALLENGES IN WIFE’S RECOVERY PROCESS

From Years-Ago-Anne: Defining and enforcing boundaries is often one of the more challenging aspects of a wife’s recovery process. However, becoming adept at boundary work is often the defining process for wives. I work with a few women in recovery. I’m the sponsor of three of them, and they’re learning how to set boundaries with their husbands and it’s very difficult.

Anne: I’m talking about setting boundaries with my husband in the context of 12 step. The wife’s recovery process is interesting to me. It’s defining her as a wife of this guy, rather than helping her view herself as independent. Which was important for me to do in the Living Free Workshop. To ensure that women know you don’t need to be defined by the fact that you are married to an abuser. A pornography addict, or a sex addict, you are you.

So this recovery program, that’s saying a wife’s recovery process. Rather than saying an individual’s recovery process, or the more accurate way to say it would be. An individual’s healing from abuse.

SETTING BOUNDARIES WITH MY HUSBAND: ONGOING TRAUMA & HEALING

From Years-Ago-Anne: I’ve had a lot of women in the group tell me that when they learned how to set boundaries with their husbands. And they actually set them and kept them until they felt safe. Miracles began to happen. That is light, and light repels darkness. And it has been heart wrenching, and basically felt like the gates of hell were gaping after me. It was very difficult to maintain that my heart is so broken, and I am completely, totally devastated by that.

As my boundaries have improved, my sense of self has as well. My trauma is still intense, but I think it will begin to lose its power over time. As I practice recovery behaviors, it doesn’t always feel like it’s working. In fact, I’ve days lately where I’m just walking down the hall, and suddenly, it’s like someone punches me in the stomach. I start just howling, uncontrollably sobbing.

And I feel so alone, and I feel so completely abandoned by my husband and his choices. That he chose his addiction and his anger over his family. That he purposefully destroys our family. I feel so much trauma. And I do surrender, I surrender, I keep my boundaries. I still am in this trauma place.

And I have faith that if I continue to read my scriptures, pray, attend the temple, which I’m doing. If I continue to reach out, to do connecting behaviors with my sponsor, friends and family, which I’m doing. I will heal eventually. I went to yoga this morning, and I got a little mantra card from my teacher, and it said, “Your healing is already in process.”

MY LIFE IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOW

Anne: And it was, my healing was already in process. And even though I was not getting the education I needed about abuse at that time. I was starting to learn effective strategies in setting boundaries. That I used throughout the years. My life is completely different now. I feel such peace on a daily basis. But I remember the pain.

No matter where you are on your journey. We’re here for you.

Are you wondering how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids…maybe even part of you is still hoping things will change…for the kids’ sake. That makes sense. In fact, here’s the five stages most women go through when thinking about leaving a toxic man.

THE 5 STAGES OF HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP

1. THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER

Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you even start thinking about how to leave a toxic relationship when have kids and you realize things need to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore.

It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.” Maybe you even discover he’s emotionally abusive. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

2. YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step in how to leave a toxic relationship is, to do something about it. This could be something as simple as journaling about what’s happening, so you can keep a clear mind or listening to a podcast that helps you feel less alone and gives you strategies. Doing something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger.

3. YOU DECIDE TO PROTECT YOURSELF

Making changes in order to protect yourself can feel like crossing a bridge and knowing you can’t go back to the way things were before. Maybe you decide not to do something with the person who is hurting or scaring you, like not riding in the car with them when they’re angry and aggressive. Or you stop trying to explain how you’re feeling, especially if they use those feelings against you later. It could even mean moving away from them.

4. YOU START DEVELOPING NEW STRATEGIES FOR LIVING

It’s not uncommon for women to start to feel a mix of greater clarity and emotional safety after making these changes. It can also be uncomfortable at first. You’re getting used to a new way of living. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build toward a better life. You might start to rekindle old dreams, or work on your career. Little by little, as your confidence in yourself grows, things start to get better even if it’s hard.

5. YOU CAN SEE A CLEAR PATH TO THE PEACEFUL LIFE YOU WANT

In the last step, you start to really believe you deserve and can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about creating a safe home, doing things you enjoy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from surviving to living life well.

Being able to visualize this life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe.

TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As we describe the processes we went through in determining how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, listen for how you can protect yourself from his emotional abuse. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map.

I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies. The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to leave a toxic relationship with kids, because my ex-husband, even eight years after divorce, was being emotionally abusive almost daily. He was messaging me all the time.

And was counter-parenting. He canceled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse?

And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband?

THE COMMUNICATION TRAP WITH ABUSIVE EX-PARTNERS

Anne: Janet before you enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Workshop. Can you talk about all the things you tried, in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids?

Janet: A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 12-Step for wives of pornography addicts, and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know.

We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time.

In the Betrayal Trauma Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house.

THE TEMPTATION TO ARGUE & COMMUNICATE WITH ABUSERS

Janet: And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos.

Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work.

Anne: Yeah, and The Betrayal Trauma Workshop explains why. So I’ll leave that to the workshop, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the workshop strategies can protect you from his emotional abuse in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids without communicating anything to him.

STRATEGIES FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS

Anne: It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here.

I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse. So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the workshop strategies.

If you take The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the workshop Workbook. If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages.

I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this?

ANNE BLYTHE’S PERSONAL JOURNEY TOWARD DELIVERANCE FROM ABUSE

Anne: They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying. Everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. I didn’t have language for it at the time, but I was desperately trying to understand how to leave a toxic relationship and still protect myself and my children. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt.

So after studying deliverance for a year and continuing to pray. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world.

Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court.

Anne: I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday.

THE ISRAELITES’ STORY AS A METAPHOR FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS

Anne: With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from from my husband’s emotional abuse. I’m free now.

I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert.

We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole.

And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues.

STAGE 1: THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER

Anne: Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better.

So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there.

STAGE 2:YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to leave a toxic relationship with kids.

They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage?

How To Leave A Toxic Relationship
Janet: I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above.

Anne: Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get help for betrayal trauma in marriage. We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there.

HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS: OVERCOMING FEAR

Janet: This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on.

Anne: Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop explains this really well.

So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts.

And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south.

NAVIGATING THE EXODUS: A JOURNEY OF SURVIVAL

Anne: Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck.

By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation.

The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re going to be up to your waist in mud, tripping over rocks. And if it were me, I would think the entire time, is this water going to fall down on us and kill us?

They didn’t know if they would even survive crossing the Red Sea. I’m guessing that, due to the practicalities of the situation, some people were like, uh, I’ll take my chances with Pharaoh. Because, the way forward seems too dangerous.

HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS: THE RED SEA CROSSING

Anne: We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea in the mud, and the rocks. But it could have taken days. Luckily, the Lord held the Egyptians back with that pillar of fire. So they couldn’t come destroy them during the process of crossing. But again, the entire time they’re crossing, they don’t even know if they’re going to survive.

Janet: And they didn’t know what was on the other side. They’ve never tasted that freedom. They don’t know what that land will look like. So they could see the Red Sea parted freeze and not take those steps through the mud.

Anne: I remember praying. Save me, God save me. And God is like, yes, I’m here. I will save you. Start walking across the mud. And I’m thinking. But I don’t want to get my feet dirty. As I learned these strategies, I remember telling God, like, what, you want me to step in that mud?

Janet: This analogy of the Israelites approaching the Red Sea and not knowing what’s going to happen. Their life had to get so bad that it pushes them to conquer the fear of watching those waters part. Looking at that ground and actually doing the hard steps of sludging through with all their items. With the fear that the water might come down on them. They don’t know what’s on the other side. They don’t know if their enemies will get through.

It’s almost that gift of the emotional abuse from my husband got so bad that there’s no other choice. I don’t know what this will look like to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. I don’t know how hard it will be to pass through those waters.

STAGE 3: COMMIT TO PROTECT YOURSELF (NO MATTER WHAT)

Anne: When I look at this map, I think the reason they went down south is instead of just going up and going east over the top part of the Sinai peninsula. Is that once they got to the other side and the water fell down, they couldn’t go back.

And that’s the third stage of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, protection. It’s protecting yourself through the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Workshop, and committing to those strategies no matter what. No matter how much he tries to manipulate you or whatever grooming tactics he uses. That you maintain those safety strategies, not just with him, but with people around you.

https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc

Because I think the reason God had them go south and cross the Red Sea was because he did not want them to go back. It was also a protection. There would be no other way to stop Pharaoh’s army, had they gone across the north of the Sinai peninsula. God wants us to use safety strategies to protect ourselves. And to use them, no matter how hard it gets. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop gives women strategies to protect themselves.

And these strategies work, but the key is commitment. If your husband is abusive. He’s going to try to exploit you in all kinds of ways. He may groom you. You don’t know what’s going to happen when you start actually protecting yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop lays out exactly what to do to protect yourself. In a way that he can’t get around it, it’s not up to him anymore. It has nothing to do with him. You can protect yourself no matter what he does.

THE EMOTIONAL JOURNEY OF POST-ABUSE RECOVERY: WANDERING IN THE WILDERNESS

Anne: The Israelites only had two options. Be slaughtered by Pharaoh or recognize that God had presented this safety strategy. He parted the Red Sea. And they could walk through.

So let’s talk about the other side. On the other side, they’re protected from Pharaoh’s army, because Pharaoh’s army is now destroyed. But they don’t know where they’re going, and they don’t know where they’re going to get food or water. I’m sure. Some of them regretted crossing the Red Sea, because now they couldn’t go back. And they missed that lush farmland, where they used to live. Many of them probably feel worse off now than before.

Pharaoh is not oppressing them, but their situation is difficult. The workshop strategies require sacrifice. It will feel like you’re just living day to day, and you won’t know exactly what’s going to happen. So it’ll feel like wandering around. But if you commit to the strategies. They can help you be delivered from the emotional abuse by your husband.

The children of Israel wander around what is today Saudi Arabia, the Sinai peninsula, for 40 years. They get manna from heaven. And they have to live day by day, they can’t plan for the future. They don’t have a map. They’re led by a pillar of sand. So they went from this lush delta where they had everything they needed. To living in a tent in the middle of nowhere.

STAGE 4: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP USING PROTECTIVE STRATEGIES DAY-BY-DAY

Anne: When I went to Jerusalem, we wandered in the wilderness. I looked out the window of the bus. There were actual dirt devils out there all over the place. I was, what? Some of them were bigger than others, but that pillar by day, that they followed to figure out where to go. I thought, I can totally see this happening. That is fascinating to me, and it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it was like a hundred degrees. It was so, so hot.

The scriptures talk about the cloud that would come between the Israelites and the sun to shade them. There’s the pillar that guides them. They get manna from heaven day by day. They get water out of a rock. They’re committed to protecting themselves from Pharaoh.

As you use The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies, there will be miracles along the way. In my faith, we call them tender mercies. This is stage four of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. Using protective strategies day by day. Not knowing exactly where they’ll lead you.

Janet: This phase was like euphoria, the waters did not crash down on top of me. For the first time in however many decades, I can breathe. I have a safe home for my kids. It’s like living for the first time.

Anne: I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again. Or at this stage, something like. I went outside and I could see color.

Janet: That I could taste food,.

Anne: Yeah.

Janet: Or sit there for hours, like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live.

FINDING DELIVERANCE FROM ABUSE

Anne: I think they’re amazed that they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need. Even though they might not have what they want, their lifestyle is maybe drastically different than before. They might not be eating the same foods they ate before, but they’re living on rice and beans. They’re not starving to death. For awhile, it feels good. Then it’s like, wait a minute. It would be nice to know what’s going to happen next.

Even though you’re mostly protected from abuse. There’s still quite a bit of uncertainty. When I was in Jerusalem. I also went to Jordan and literally wandered around in the same wilderness that it talks about in the Bible. Then we went to Mount Nebo. Mount Nebo is where the Israelites went right before they could go to the promised land. From Mount Nebo, they look out and see the promised land. Across the Dead Sea.

It was surreal to be in Jerusalem. It’s a lot, like the Salt Lake Valley where I’m from. I felt at home there, because it has the same geographical features as Utah. We actually have Utah Lake, and there’s a river between Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake called the Jordan River. It’s the same thing in Jerusalem, the Red Sea, then the River Jordan flows into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea and the Great Salt Lake, both do not drain. So they’re both salt, and you can easily float in them.








STAGE 5: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP AND FIND A PATH TO A PEACEFUL LIFE

Anne: Then in Jordan, we went to Petra, which is like Zion National Park. In fact, we even have a mountain in Utah called Mount Nebo. And my mom was raised right under the shadow of Mount Nebo, in Utah. So I felt at home in Jerusalem and in Jordan. I feel like God tasked me to help deliver women from abuse.

While I was on Mount Nebo. I wanted to talk to Moses. because Moses never made it down from mountain Nebo. He actually died on Mount Nebo. He never made it to the promised land. So on Mount Nebo, I thought maybe I would never make it. Maybe I won’t be delivered, but I want to make sure everybody else is. So Moses, please teach me what you want to teach me while I’m here.

So I left the tour group. Trying to find a quiet place where I could pray. And Moses did not come and talk to me, unfortunately. But Mount Nebo is where I had the inspiration for stage five. You can see a clear path to the peaceful life that you want. And you know exactly how to get there.

Janet, we were talking before. And you mentioned that was how you felt when you discovered strategic communication. You knew you needed to do it. Can you talk about seeing that clear path? And then of course. The difficulty of walking the path of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids.

Janet: Strategic communication was the hardest thing for me. The mixture of fears from my court experience, portrayed as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him. Just the fear of him and what he had put me through.

SEEKING A PROMISED FUTURE: FROM MOUNT NEBO TO WANTING JUSTICE

Janet: I was constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, holding his hand through parenting, reminding him when early out was, even if it was his parenting time. Just constantly, he lived rent free in my brain. Getting to the part where you stop trying to explain. It wasn’t the fear, I just couldn’t give up wanting justice. Wanting to show him in his face what he is doing to the kids and have him own it.

Until I realized he’s even using that. That’s even a way of him trapping me on purpose. He was abusing the kids to get to me. There’s no justice. Just the pure anger for whatever the situation is, anger, fear. Will he take me back to court, or could I get in trouble somehow?

Being so worn out, the covert emotional abuse will not stop, and just being tumbled like in the waves. Coming up for air, and then another wave comes, and then coming up for air, and another wave comes. the exhaustion of trying to communicate somehow. It all leads into a different trap.

The Betrayal Trauma Workshop made how to stop the emotional abuse so simple. The lessons are very short. It’s like your best friend is holding your hand. Print out the workbook, you can watch it again. If you feel like you missed that concept, go back and watch it again. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my divorce. Strategic communication was so good.

LESSONS FROM THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA WORKSHOP: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP

Anne: That’s so exciting. The tools in the workshop are about protecting ourselves. But they’re not about asking victims to let go, move on, or stop giving away their power. Or all those triggers, I think stupid things people say to us. Of course, you would want justice. That anger will serve you well. Speaking of anger when I first discovered the strategies. Uh, I did not want to do them. It. did not seem like the best idea. Especially with strategic communication.

I was like, what? You want me to write it like that? That’s ridiculous. But I did it anyway. And the fruits were incredible. Not only did they improve my situation, but I felt better from the inside out. It wasn’t until I implemented the strategies that I figured out why. And I explained all of it well in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.

Janet: When I started doing strategic messaging, I saw the benefits. You’re not, in harm’s way. But my ex shifted to come at me from a different angle.

Anne: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Cause of their exploitative character. They’re not happy when they can’t exploit you anymore. Cool thing is though, after the workshop, you can identify the traps.

Janet: Absolutely, and staying kind to ourselves as we trip and fall and get stuck in another trap and use it as a learning experience. I learned each time, and keep going. And keep going and keep going. That’s the gift. You’re right where you need to do what you need to do.

STRATEGIES FOR PEACE & RESILIENCE: FINDING LIBERATION

Anne: The reason I laughed is because it’s a journey to find out how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. You know, there were times where I wasn’t sure. And then looking back, it was clear that the strategies led me exactly where I needed to be.

The cool thing about the Betrayal Trauma Workshop is that it just teaches strategies. But it doesn’t dictate what you need to do. So for example, it doesn’t push you toward divorce or push you toward remaining married. They’re just safety strategies that women can apply in any situation.

Janet: Anne, thank you for having me on and talking about this. I love the map and just walking through the deliverance process like you did. The BTR.ORG Workshop is so beneficial for any woman on any stage. If she is still overwhelmed in the fog of abuse, the workshop has made it so simple. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my marriage.

Anne: Yeah, don’t we all? Again, these strategies work in any stage. Our coaches can help you implement the strategies and apply them. Thank you so much, Janet, for talking with me today.

Janet: Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night.

Have you ever felt like, “my husband hates me” and you had no idea why?

Maybe nothing obvious is happening that you can point to and say, “This proves it.” The truth is: emotionally abusive men don’t have to yell or call you names for you to feel unloved, emotionally unsafe, and completely confused about why your marriage feels so painful.

Take this free emotional abuse test to find out if your husband is emotionally abusive.

Key takeaways from this article:

How “small” patterns over time erode feeling safe and loved.

Doubting your own needs often signals deeper issues.

How covert abuse makes it hard to spot the overall dynamic.

How setting boundaries may highlight a troubling power imbalance.

The right support can help you see the pattern and plan for safety.

5 SIGNS IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND NOT YOUR FAULT

1. EVERY CONCERN I HAD, MEANT I WAS “TOO MUCH”

Every time I ask for help, express emotion, or bring up a concern, he flips it back on me. He said I was, “too much, unable to let anything go, making mountains out of molehills, or just wanting to fight.” He had no empathy for me.

The repeated message was: any natural reactions, needs, or concerns I had, were character flaws. My husband purposefully kept me in a place of doubting my relationship skills, and his manipulation worked. It kept me spinning my wheels always trying to prove to him that I am lovable.

2. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: WHILE I TRIED HARDER, HE SEEMED ANNOYED

Have you ever done something nice for him, and he seems super annoyed? Let’s say you’re like, “Hey, I picked up your dry cleaning on the way home.” And he’s like, “Do you want a parade?” You know, he’s got this like sulky teenager sort of reaction instead of saying, “Oh, thank you so much.”

If he’s doing that, you would definitely get the sense that he hated you.

3. HE WAS NOT KIND, BUT I DIDN’T NOTICE UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE POINTED IT OUT TO ME

My husband wasn’t overtly unkind, but I didn’t notice until somebody else pointed it out. I didn’t think my husband hates me. It was when he ignored me at a party. Instead of being like, “Hey, this is my wife,” he just stood in front of me and didn’t introduce me. I had never thought about how rude that was. I just thought, “Oh, maybe he didn’t think about me.”

But not thinking about someone is actually unkind.

4. WHEN I SET A BOUNDARY, HE FELT ATTACKED

When I quietly stopped doing something I didn’t want to do, he reacted like I had attacked him. And that confused me for years, because I wasn’t yelling. I wasn’t insulting him. I was simply saying no without always saying the word. And I wasn’t doing anything, besides not doing something I didn’t want to do. He did that all the time.

But if he’s only in the relationship to have control over you, “no” feels like rebellion. Because he does not see your boundary as an autonomous person. He sees it as you failing to serve him.

So when he says he loves you but acts like he hates you, sometimes what he hates is not you. He hates that you have your own needs. Your own limits. Your own body.

It’s shocking to realize the level of abuse symptoms experienced. To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

TRANSCRIPT: I FEEL LIKE MY HUSBAND HATES ME

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll be talking about feeling like my husband hates me. We’re gonna call her Allison. Welcome, Allison.

Allison: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. I’m totally fangirling right now, ’cause I have listened to you for so many years. I still can’t believe this is happening. So I did not miss a podcast. I go way, way, way, way, way back. This is so cool for me.

Anne: Oh wow. Well, you’ve been on this journey with me then.

Allison: I know at one time you said you could tell the change in your voice. And I totally could. I found you and it was amazing. Lemme just say it that way. It was the validation.

It’s funny when I try to tell my story now, it’s hard because I am so clearheaded now. And I think it’s so hard to tell how you were then. Because, if I knew now what I knew then. It would be a completely different story. So when I tell people about you, I tell them to go back to the beginning, Because then you can go along with her.

I was married 20 years, I was the textbook, didn’t know anything was really wrong. And I say that now and I think I know a lot of stuff that was wrong.

Anne: Let’s start back at that beginning when you were in the dark, so to speak. Talk about how you felt when you first met him. Did you suspect something was wrong? And then what did you think it was?

I NEVER FELT SAFE OR LOVED

Allison: All this tangible stuff that you can point to, if it was happening. I didn’t know about it. As far as I know, he never cheated on me. I don’t know if he ever used pornography. Didn’t call me names, didn’t yell at me. When we first met, we were in college, we were in our twenties. We were friends, we dated, got engaged and married. Now, I can tell you inside my inner gut, I never really felt safe or loved or anything by him. But I didn’t know that that was wrong.

I’m the kind of person who is optimistic. I’m very hopeful. I can do a lot of things at once. I can solve a lot of problems.

Now, it would be totally different, but I didn’t think anything was wrong. I thought I was super happy, comfortable, and safe in that relationship. In hindsight, I felt like I was always the nag, I was, OCD, I was over the top, I was a pain. I had these extremely high, crazy expectations that nobody could meet. That was just our life, and we had my first son after we’d been married about seven years, and everything just got bad. It was then that I started to think my husband hates me.

And then three years later, we had our daughter, and things got worse. And I thought it was me. I thought I’m just a hard person to be around.

Anne: I don’t know if I’ve said this on the podcast, but of a time we were at a park and he was just being mean to me and I was like, I’m really great. I’m really cool. So it’s the opposite of what you were thinking, it’s me. But maybe sometimes you did think I’m great, why doesn’t he like me?

I TURNED TO MY CHURCH AND THERAPY FOR HELP

Allison: Little voices in my head would be like, why don’t I have these problems with anybody else? Why does nobody else in my life tell me I am difficult to communicate with? I get paid to communicate with people. And I feel like I’m really good at it. But I thought it was me. I was not super religious, grew up Christian, but not overly so.

When I was having a hard time being a mom and didn’t feel like I had any support, I went to church and I just threw myself into the Methodist church, and I would tell you now, I love the Methodist Church dearly in my heart.

They helped me find Jesus, and I love all that. But it made all this so much worse. I needed help because I feel like my husband hates me. I just threw into the submission and be a better Biblical wife, and it took everything already happening and exponentially made it worse.

Anne: Back then when you thought it was you, did you go to therapy? Did you try to go to a couple therapy with him? Can you talk about the therapeutic experience?

Allison: Yes, so the first time we went to therapy, we’d probably been married six years. It was very much, something is wrong, and I don’t know what kind of thing. I found myself more attracted to other people. I was like, why do I like these other men? Or I’d rather be with friends more than him.

Again, I just thought, what’s wrong with me? He’s funny, he is nice, he has a good job, and he treats me well.

I TRIED EVERYTHING AND STILL, MY HUSBAND HATES ME

Allison: So the first time we went to therapy, that was the premise and the therapist, it was the date night, go on more date nights, all this typical stuff. I just tried harder. Thought maybe we should have a baby. Maybe that’ll help. Maybe I should quit work, maybe that’ll help. I tried to be a better wife.

And I threw myself into all The Power of a Praying Wife books. And how can I be a better wife? ‘Cause if I am better. Then he will give me some sort of safety or love that I’m craving.

Anne: You mentioned he was nice to you. He is a good guy. Why don’t I wanna spend time with him? Was he actually nice to you?

Allison: Actually not nice, not nice or kind. He was none of that, but I couldn’t see it. I didn’t think my husband hates me. So again, in hindsight now, he was always very grumpy. He was mean to my friends. Definitely mean to my family. Of course, none of them said anything either.

20 years later, I was like, why didn’t you say anything to me? And they said, “You seemed okay, so we didn’t feel like it was our place.”

Anne: What did they think of him from their point of view?

Allison: Close friends and family, people who really knew me, thought he was a jerk. Why does she like this person? But they just trusted me. They said, “Well, she’s a smart person, he must treat her great at home.” He was mean to waiters, had road rage. He was that kind of person, who was angry all the time.

WORKING FULL TIME AND CARRYING EVERYTHING AT HOME

Allison: That all elevated when we had kids. I think most people questioned me. What is she seeing in him? That made me question myself even more. Everything I tried to do, therapy, church, and advice from people who loved me, put it more onto me.

So the first time I went to therapy, just nothing. I felt this heavy weight. Now I have to work full-time and take care of everything in the house, take care of the yard and the cars, and plan all our date nights and stuff so that he will be nice to me. It just put even more onto me. Our pattern was complaining or criticizing, or asking for help, or having any emotion. And then him saying, “Well that’s you. You’re too much, you’re overboard. You can never let anything go. You just wanna fight.”

It was, gaslighting at its extreme. And I took it, I don’t think it’s ’cause I’m stupid or a doormat. I think I took it cause I just thought I could fix it.

Anne: Also, strangely, it shows what a good person you are. You weren’t super offended. You were like, “Oh, maybe that is true. Maybe I can improve.” You didn’t feel like my husband hates me.

Allison: I’ve always liked self-improvement. I think my dad gave me The Seven Habits when I was in high school school. I’ve always been the kind of person who thrives on how I can become a better person. That’s always been me.

And so, I just fit the mold. I always say now, “What a great person to be married to.” He was married to somebody who was going to keep trying.

ABUSERS SEEM TO FIT THE SAME MOLD

Anne: I wouldn’t say you fit the mold. And this is why, it’s really weird. The abusers seem to fit the mold. ‘Cause they all tend to have the same patterns, even if they look a little bit different. But victims act totally different. Some of them, I didn’t do this, but some shut down and become more quiet.

Some become louder. And some try self-improvement, some don’t. It’s really interesting that we react in all different kinds of ways, but the fact that they lie, and then they keep lying, and they don’t stop lying, is what makes them pretty much all similar. It depends on how they lie.

Allison: Fast forward 20 years later. ‘Cause it was really just 20 years of the same. We found ourselves in therapy a couple more times between this and that point. At first, I thought something was maybe wrong with my son. He needs to go to therapy.

Is he on the spectrum? What is wrong? Why is family fighting all the time? Why can’t we sit down to a meal without fighting? And why are we always fighting in the car? Why do we not fight when I go out with my friends and their kids? And it was just, what is wrong here? And the therapist that time. I think he saw it. I really do, this person saw it. He told my ex, if you wanna see changes in the behavior of your son, you’ll need to treat your wife the way you want your son to treat her.

You can’t yell at your son for leaving stuff around the house, and not help out at home. If you are not doing those things.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HE WAS LAZY TO AN EXTREME

Allison: It was very elementary, and very gentle. And my ex is like, we’re never gonna see him again. That therapist is terrible. He’s trying to blame it all on me. It just wasn’t worth the fight, that was time number two.

Anne: During this time, did you ever find pornography or affairs or sexting or anything like that?

Allison: I didn’t, to this day, I still don’t know. They’re all the same, it would not surprise me.

Anne: Yeah, there are so many women who are like, I don’t know. And then later they find out or never find out. Even though they feel like my husband hates me. But it wouldn’t surprise me either, with what you’re saying.

Allison: And honestly, I’m at the point where it doesn’t matter either way. I think I lived a very long time in the, I need something to prove that he’s a bad person for me to justify how I feel.

All I could say tangibly is that he was lazy to an extreme. He would never help with anything. He’s set his alarm to go off at four o’clock in the morning, and it would go off and wake everybody up. But then wouldn’t get outta bed till eight o’clock in the morning, constantly for years. We had two kids, and I’m putting ’em to bed at night. I’d say, can you do the dishes so that I can just come downstairs and watch TV after I put the kids to bed? I come downstairs, he’s asleep. The dishes aren’t done. And next morning, I would say, “I thought you were gonna do the dishes, that upset me.”

IT WAS EASIER TO DISASSOCIATE FROM THE PATTERNS

Allison: It was just, “Why can you not let anything go? You make a mountain out of a mole hill. You just wanna fight all the time.”

I didn’t see those as patterns. It was so covert. Everything turned back onto me and I just accepted it. ‘Cause I think it felt like I had a little bit of control. If I could accept that it was me, maybe I could fix it.

Anne: Yeah, I mean that’s the hope, we want to fix it.

Allison: We want to fix it.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: When he would say things like, “You just wanna fight. You want to blow this up?”

Now I look back at those conversations, and I wish I could go back in time, because it’s the last thing I wanted. But instead of me being that clear and saying, “No, I don’t wanna fight.” I would say, “I’m so sorry I did this. I’m so sorry I brought this up.”

Anne: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Allison: It just got easier to disassociate from it and try to do my own thing, than to try to fix it, because every fight ended with me. Not just fight, every conversation ended with it was my fault. And so it just got easier to never have a conversation or never bring up a concern, ’cause it was just gonna be my fault anyway.

I LOST MYSELF COMPLETELY

Allison: Then I lived for several years like that, and that’s where I just lost myself completely.

One day my sister said, “Something’s not right”. Again, it was all very gentle, nothing blew up. Something just doesn’t seem right. You’ve been married for 20 years, having the same fight for 20 years.” She had been married a little over 10. And she’s like, “We resolve problems. You’ve never resolved a problem, and that’s not normal.”

I let this little pin prick into my head that maybe this isn’t normal and maybe it’s not me. That was it. It was very gentle. That’s when I went back to that same therapist for about eight years before and sat on his couch, and I was like, “Something’s not right. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I just don’t wanna do anything.”

And I’m a happy person. I’m an extrovert. I just wasn’t myself. He had already seen it eight years before. Very gently he said, “Here’s a book called Boundaries using them in marriage. Maybe you should read this.”

And so I read it and I was like, oh, yay, this is what’s wrong. We’re gonna fix it. He’s gonna read the book and realize that, oh, and we’re gonna fix it. And then that’s when the bottom dropped out. Because when I switched my tactic to, maybe it’s not all me, maybe it’s only 99% me, but 1% you, he lost it. And that’s when things escalated and it started becoming a little bit more overt.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I FOUND BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY

Allison: That’s right about when I Googled, “Why am I so unhappy in my marriage if nothing is wrong?” Something like that. I think covert abuse popped up and I was like, I wonder what that means. Gaslighting popped up.

That’s when I found BTR, I started listening to your podcast. This is what’s happening. Oh my gosh. I was still hopeful it could fix it, because now I knew what it was. I lived like that for about nine months. And then one day it was like, no, I still very gently went to him and said, “You need to get outta the house. And if you ever decide to admit that maybe some of this could be you and you wanna talk, then come back and talk to me. But in the meantime, I’m done.” We had a big blow up.

Then family court drama and the kids and all that. I saw who he really was, ’cause then it all came out. He went from literally one week of, “You’re the love of my life. Please don’t leave. We can work this out. I’ll do anything. I will do anything to save this.”

It went from that to, “I want to destroy you. I will do anything to destroy you, destroy your family, destroy your business and take your children.” And it was that fast. Then I spent a few years trying to figure all that out. I faced the painful truth, my husband hates me.

Anne: That’s what frustrates me about the domestic abuse services. I didn’t need the domestic violence shelter. But help with navigating the emotional abuse in marriagel, psychological, and spiritual abuse. They’re all about divorce, and if you don’t get divorced, something’s wrong with you.

THEY WANT TO SCARE YOU, SO THEY CAN CONTROL YOU

Anne: They look at you like you’re crazy if you don’t wanna get divorced. And then the second problem is they think divorce is the solution.

Allison: Yes, it’s the start of the journey.

Anne: Not the solution.

Allison: No, that’s where you were invaluable. I’m telling you. So at this point, we had Our Family Wizard, and my sister had the password, and she would scrub through them. She’d say, this is the only thing you need to answer.

I was terrified to block his number. I was terrified to not answer the phone if he called. Because I just thought, I have to answer the phone because if I don’t, he’s gonna say I’m not answering the phone, and then I’m not being collaborative, and then he’s gonna use that with the lawyer. That was the scariest part, that time right then.

Anne: The thing I wanna tell women listening is, yeah, you’re scared and you’re scared for good reason because they’re scary, but they want to scare you. They’re scaring you on purpose, so that you’ll do what they want. It’s a form of coercive control.

Allison: He was always able to gaslight me some way, so the pattern’s the same, it’s just that whatever they’re doing to scare you.

Anne: When the gaslighting stopped working, that’s when he started using the other thing. And then when the court’s involved, the court becomes like an extension of his.

A THREE YEAR COURT BATTLE

Allison: Yeah, and my kids by then were older, I do thank God every day they weren’t younger. My heart breaks for women with young kids in this system because, this was really hard on my kids and sometimes I feel like we barely got out alive.

I feel like we were bloody and bruised, it was so hard on all of us. But they were older, I was always honest with them. You’re given all kinds of weird advice, don’t ever disparage him.

I was always very gentle about it. Your dad thinks differently than I think, but you can have your own relationship with him. He accused me of alienation, and we had the whole thing and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and whatever.

But they were older. And that three year court battle ended with them talking to the judge alone. And she set us free. She said, “The final ruling that came down was that the children should spend half their time with their father. You worry about them children watching inappropriate media. And it literally said something like, it’s not the mother’s sole responsibility to make that happen. That’s all it said. And so I never heard from him, he fell off the face of the earth.

Anne: Isn’t that crazy? He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting you for the kids, and then once it ends, nothing. There’s a section of that in my workshop that you’d appreciate that talks about that and the strategy to use because of this very reason. It is crazy that they will fight and fight and fight.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HIS BEHAVIOR VALIDATED THE TRUTH

Anne: In my case, I was trying to have custody remain the same. And he was getting more, so I was fighting that in court, and he won basically. I ended up stopping the suit and just filing out of court. But a year later, he completely was like, yeah, you can have them full time all the time. I’m like, why did you just spend $50,000 fighting me in court when you didn’t want the kids? It’s never about the kids. It showed that my husband hates me and wants me punished.

Allison: And you know in a way all that stuff was very validating to me.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: It’s hard now. I can’t get back in my brain where I was then. But I was very confused. I sound now like I was very sure of myself. I was not always sure of myself. There were lots of times where I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I’m talking to a guardian ad litem and we’ve got all these different therapists. I was trying to do the right thing, but I wasn’t always sure I was doing the right thing.

Now in hindsight, his terribleness is very validating. And now my kids are doing fine. They will have issues that they will have to deal with the rest of their lives, and they will deal with it. But for the most part, they are doing okay.

Anne: And I think kids do way better when they know it’s not them. When they know, I’m lovable, my dad’s incapable of loving people. That has nothing to do with me.

YOU’LL FIND YOU’RE NOT ALONE

Allison: Right, and you can have a relationship with a dad who’s a jerk. That’s fine, they just had to learn their own boundaries. My one son is almost 21 now and my daughter’s 17. So they can do whatever they want with this, and we’ll see. I think the part that’s so hard now to tell people is when they’re in that super confused state.

‘Cause I just want them to jump to here. I know you feel like you’re gonna die, and I know you feel like you can’t go on. And I promise you, you can. The women in this community are awesome. They are rock stars. I mean, these are women who never made a dime and are now supporting themselves off strange part-time side hustles and just amazing.

Anne: I know. It’s so hard, so in my workshop that I designed for women in that specific situation. So they could see what was happening.

Allison: It’s so critical. It’s so good.

Like literally a hundred percent sure that these would help people. You have to be clear enough in your head to believe it and trust it. And I think that’s really hard, especially when you’re in that initial stage. You’re given all this advice, and you’re just bombarded by all these people.

Just listen to some podcasts, read some books about emotional abuse like Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You’ll find that you’re not alone. And it’s so validating. Listen to the survivors and the people who now can be like, I did it. My husband hates me and I survived.

Anne: Yeah.

MAKING SENSE OF IT ALL THROUGH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY

Allison: I just feel like we went through like a battle, but we’re still here.

Anne: Yeah, so for those women who are listening and thinking like, okay, should I trust Anne? I’m not saying blindly, but the women who have shared their stories, like Allison. Should I trust the workshop or should I continue to go to couple therapy? And I’m not even like quit couple therapy. Just do the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop and see if you feel differently afterwards. It’s so hard to trust someone, especially like a “podcast” rather than a therapist, your church or your family.

Allison: I’ll tell you from my experience. When I would listen to you. What you were saying made sense. Where sometimes what a therapist told me, I had to almost figure out how to make it make sense, right?

Everything you said made sense. I didn’t have to reach. And you sounded a lot, like how I felt. So my problem is, it’s hard for me to put into words or writing. So when I hear somebody who can articulate how I feel, that feels good. That person sounds like how I feel. And then when your guests come on, I’ve listened to so many of ’em. I usually walk my dog, listen to the podcast, and walk around my neighborhood.

I’m always like, yes, that’s it. And you’ll hear the same things. When people say, and then he called me a name and he yelled at me. Sometimes you start, “Oh, is my situation really as bad?” You start these comparisons.




MY HUSBAND HATES ME: TAKING INFORMATION TO MY THERAPIST

Allison: But it’s more that you could just relate to them. I think that’s what I would say. If you’re talking to your pastor or therapist, it feels like a stretch. But if you hear somebody you feel you can relate to, you can probably trust them.

Anne: It’s been interesting. A few women have said, “I listened to your podcast. It was amazing. Then I took your information to my therapist, so that I could train my therapist in what you were saying, so that she could help me or he could help me. And I’m like, you realize you don’t have to train our coaches in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions.

We already know how to do this. So if you’re feeling like, oh, this is so good. I’m gonna take this information to my therapist. We’re here, you don’t have to train us. We already know this. We can help you now, instead of having you teach your therapist what we’re saying.

Also, they won’t actually get it. They’ll maybe act like they do because they would be doing it if they got it.

Allison: It’s hard to trust therapists, pastors. It’s very hard for me now. I was doing the same thing. I would try to give books to the people helpers in my life, “Listen to this.”

And they almost wanna fight it. Who is this person? Or why? I think now, if I’m having to work so hard to get something, there’s something wrong there. Maybe my husband hates me.

Anne: We’re here to help you now. You don’t have to train us. We can help you immediately.

YOU REALLY NEED AN ADVOCATE

Allison: What’s really helping you would be my question. Is it really helping you?

Learning all this stuff from people who understand. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know if I would’ve been strong enough to fight with the therapist, the guardian at litem, the pastor, the family who didn’t believe.

I did need some backup, but I hate that now. And what I would tell people now is, “It’s your gut. If your gut tells you this person sounds trustworthy, and this person can articulate how you feel, and they can articulate what’s actually going on in your life. Then that’s the person you can trust.”

Anne: I don’t think anyone can do it alone. So I don’t think you need to feel bad about being like, man, I couldn’t go against the therapist or the pastor and should have been able to do it. I don’t think anybody can. You really do need an advocate or somebody who validates you, because otherwise you legit think you’re going crazy when you realize my husband hates me..

Allison: Yes, for sure. That’s the mind control. I also got very into stories about people who left cults. I would read. I’d get this advice from the bad therapists, the bad pastors, and the bad books.

And I couldn’t relate to it. Then I’d watch a documentary about somebody who left Scientology and I was like, oh my gosh, I get her. And it was weird to me. I was like, why can I relate with that person who has nothing in common with me, and I can’t relate to this person at my own church who’s trying to help me?

AN UNDERSTANDING COMMUNITY EXPONENTIALLY HELPS HEALING

Allison: That seemed strange to me. Instead, I just trusted it a little bit, and I started doing a little more research, and I thought you were in that. And that’s why I just fully believe these relationships are a little cult of one, and it’s like leaving a cult. Because all that gaslighting, especially if it’s covert, that makes that so much harder. So they need advocates.

Anne: I like that, “cult of one.” Yeah, you need a foundation of truth somewhere. Because otherwise it just feels like you’re floating in space with nothing to hold onto. It’s very, very difficult.

Allison: I put some stuff on Facebook, probably a little more real than I should have. Then I’d have somebody reach out to me, and I’d get a Facebook message from somebody, oh what you just posted? Then I’d say, “Hey, do you wanna meet?”

A friend who knows a friend who knows a friend. And what we saw was that it was so much easier for me to see it in somebody else. She’d send me conversations or recordings of their conversations or texts. And I would be like, “Oh this is what he is doing, this is what he’s doing.” It was so clear to me that my husband hates me.

And then we started realizing you start from the person who needs a lot of help, then you’re now suddenly the person helping somebody here. So that was another thing that I think your community, it exponentially helps that healing.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: VALIDATION IN THE BEGINNING IS CRITICAL

Anne: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. We call them Chucks at BTR.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: So with your Chuck, you know all these other things about him. It’s hard to sort through it, but other people from the outside are just looking at the facts.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: They haven’t had the late night conversations with him where he tells you he’s totally in love with you or that he was so hurt as a child.

Allison: Sorry, and he won’t do it again.

Anne: Yeah, they haven’t had any of that, and so they can look at the actions, the behaviors, and what’s going on, and it’s very clear. But it’s foggy in the middle, when my husband hates me.

Allison: That was a mean thing to say.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: I’m intrigued by the use of AI in all this now. I have our old emails I had with him towards the end, these things that will analyze them for you. It is fascinating.

But anything validating in that beginning is also so critical. I think the hardest was, oh yeah, this seems so clear. And it felt like lightning bolts coming at me. I woke up and it was so clear.

And then, you go through the day or the next day and it’s all mush again. Where did that clarity go, where did that validation go? The community can give you that over and over and over.

WHEN THE PAST TRAUMA STARTS TO FADE

Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly it. Because without that daily check-in with reality, where someone’s validating reality. It does make it hard to hold onto.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: I’m so glad we’ve gone down that same path. We’ve had the same sort of experiences-ish. And now we’re both safe and delivered. I always use that word delivered.

Allison: Oh I use that word all the time. I loved when you were doing that part. And I loved when you were praying for deliverance for him. I was doing the same thing.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: That was a fun phase.

Anne: I’ve done a couple of interviews lately with women. I agree with them in this moment. They’ve said things like, “Trauma, it always stays in your body. You’re never gonna forget, he wants me to forget, but how can I forget feeling like my husband hates me?”

That kind of thing. And I 100% agree, because when I was there, that’s how I felt. And now, I forget sometimes. It’s weird ’cause I’m not living with it. I’m not experiencing his trauma anymore. And once you’re completely safe and delivered, I wouldn’t say I would ever forget. Sometimes when people tell stories, it takes me back there.

Today I remembered when I was in the park. I can go back there.

I recently finished my book and that has been interesting because I detail some of the things that happened. Evidence that my husband hates me. And they’re really bad. I can’t remember exactly how many, but I think it was seven therapists and five or six bishops that I went through.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I STILL GET ANGRY SOMETIMES

Allison: That’s very similar to me, same kind of numbers.

Anne: So at least just on my day-to-day living, I don’t think about it. This is my job, so I think about it when I’m talking to people, but going about my day, no. I don’t constantly think my husband hates me.

Allison: I had the one good therapist. I went through years and did EMDR therapy, and I did it a lot. One time I sat down with him and he said, “Someday, you’re gonna be sitting on a beach somewhere, and this is gonna be gone. It will not be in your head.” I’m holding onto that. It’s not quite there. I still get angry sometimes, ’cause stuff still happens.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: Something will happen with the kids, and I have to communicate. It’s very rare, we don’t communicate much, but stuff still happens, and I can still get very angry.

So the anger is definitely still there. I feel like he wasted all those years of my life. But then just like you, I’m like, I would’ve never been this person I am now, which is doing all these other wonderful things. I can rationalize that in my head.

The one part I can’t get over yet. And so this would be interesting to hear you talk to other people about it. ‘Cause I want to get over it, I want him to say he’s sorry. I just crave it. I don’t ever wanna see him again. It wasn’t all you,

Anne: For him to suddenly be like, you know what? I lied to your face. It was 100% me. ‘Cause that’s what he would have to say.

Allison: Exactly, yeah.

HE’S STILL BLOCKED ON MY PHONE

Allison: Someday, even that’s gonna go away and that will be great. When I just don’t even care anymore.

That’s the only thing that hangs on there every once in a while. I’ve had so many other people tell me it’s not you. And I don’t know why I care. I just wish that would go away.

Anne: That makes total sense.

Allison: It’s most likely never gonna happen. It might just fade into where he just disappears completely from my thoughts.

Anne: My situation right now with my Chuck, I think he wants me to like him. Not sexually or anything, but I’ll say something, and he’ll be so friendly and happy about it. Because I use the strategies now,

I think he thinks everything’s fine. And when I say that, I know that he is still the person he was. He is lying still, it’s just that now I’m apathetic about it and don’t care about engaging with him. But I think he actually thinks, oh, things are good now. Even though he still does things that prove my husband hates me.

The fact that he’s still blocked on my phone, the fact that I will never talk to him except for through Our Family Wizard, the fact that I don’t believe a word he says, there’s all these things. I wasn’t like that until I got delivered, and since I got delivered, maybe I’ll say something to him like, oh, what a nice day. But that’s it. At that point, I’m out of there. If we talked for longer than 30 seconds or maybe 10 seconds, that the dagger would definitely come out.

JUST DO THE NEXT “RIGHT” THING

Anne: And his wife, I think at this point, likes me a lot more than she likes him. It’s weird, because over text, she’s so friendly. She always asks me very politely. If I say no, she’s like, no problem. She’s amazing. I am so grateful for her. She’s great.

But in person, when I see her, she’s got that look on her face, like I’m in a bad situation. I don’t know what to do. I wonder if she’s thinking my husband hates me. And I have no idea if she knows about the podcast or not, but I think, oh man, if you listened, think about how much you related to me. Can you imagine my Chuck’s wife listening and being like, this is my life literally. That would be crazy.

I don’t know if that’ll ever happen. I’ve been lucky, and my kids have been lucky. She’s a good person. So my ex had good taste. I’ll say that about him.

Allison: He picked you.

Anne: Yeah, anyway, I don’t know what will happen with that. Sometimes I fantasize for two seconds about her showing up on my door.

Allison: I listened to your podcast, I need your help. That would be very validating as well.

Anne: Yeah, this is specifically for you.

Allison: Yes.

If any of this resonates with you. If you think something is wrong, and you can’t put your finger on it. Trust that it doesn’t mean you’re over emotional or over sensitive. That’s reality, that’s God telling you, trust it, and then just do the next thing. That was the most helpful advice, just do the next thing, right?

HELPING WOMEN FIND THE TRUTH THEY NEED

Allison: So if you listened to the first one, your first podcast you’ve ever listened to, scroll back and find one where maybe the title sounds like something that you can relate to and listen to that one.

It starts from a tiny pinprick of reality, truth, and light. In the end, what happens is like that pin prick of light becomes so much. And everybody gets there.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: I don’t know one person that hasn’t got there. They’ve all got there in their own ways and their own time.

Anne: Yeah, exactly.

Allison: Everybody gets there. Because it’s real, because this is what’s happening. You are not a bad person, and he’s a jerk. I wouldn’t trade it. I wouldn’t go back and not do this, ’cause I wouldn’t be who I am and able to see things the way I see, that’s a unique way.

Anne: Thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us today. Sharing stories helps women who might be thinking my husband hates me.

Allison: I love it. And I’m gonna keep listening. I listen every week.

Anne: Awesome, thank you.

Allison: Thank you so much.

If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying.

If it’s hard to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, look for these 5 things. And keep reading as I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce.

1. DOES HIS APOLOGY FOCUS ON ONE SMALL MOMENT, WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE?

My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues.

If your husband thinks an apology for one incident is sufficient to repair the damage done by his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. He’s putting a bandaid on one of a thousand cuts and expecting that to heal all of the other wounds.

2. IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY?

 I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize?

Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away.

3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR?

 My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing?

Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of emotional abuse and infidelity, no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth.

4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILE?

This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine.

Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive and maintain distance.

5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY?

 My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today.

If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity.

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT’S GENUINE?

Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.

If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our Group Session Schedule.

It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.

ESCALATING ABUSE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AND TRIES TO MAKE RESTITUTION

Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.

Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.

Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.

He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.

THE TURNING POINT: LEGOLAND INCIDENT

Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.

I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.

The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.

I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.

I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.

RESTITUTION VS. FORGIVENESS WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES

Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.

My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.

He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.

And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.

Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.

It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.

THE REALITY OF SEPARATION FROM EVIL

Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.

One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.

Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband.

ANALOGIES TO UNDERSTAND ABUSE

Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.

I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?

I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.

The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZED: ANALYZING IT’S MEANING

Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.

There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.




If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.

Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.

YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES WITH A TOKEN GESTURE

Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.

I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.

So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.

So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, OBSERVE HIS CHARACTER

Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering can my husband change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.

What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.

Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.

He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?

WHAT ARE PERFORMATIVE APOLOGIES

Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.

This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything. Even though my ex husband apologized, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right?

It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.

He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t admit he’d been counter parenting or talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.

So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AS A WEAPON

Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.

One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”

So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.

Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.

They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.

THE TRUE NATURE OF AN ABUSIVE CHARACTER

Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.

We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.

I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.

Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.

WHAT TRUE REPENTANCE LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES

Anne: He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because he’s apologizing. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.

Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. That kind of restoration doesn’t happen quickly. It takes years—sometimes decades. It also answers a question many women are quietly asking: how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse? Healing and rebuilding trust follow that same timeline. They can’t be rushed, and they can’t be created with words alone.

That’s what real restitution would look like.

When I received that letter, I felt a sense of peace. I knew I was doing the right thing.

THE ALTERNATIVE REALITY OF THE ABUSER

Anne: I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.

I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.

And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.

MOVING FORWARD DESPITE INSINCERE APOLOGIES FROM MY HUSBAND

Anne: I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.

It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.

In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else? I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop.

When counseling for cheating treats a husband’s betrayal as a marriage issue instead of focusing on his pattern of lying, it can be a soul crushing realization for his wife. Women who’ve been betrayed by their husbands need support that personally understands this truth, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups.

Here are five things a therapist or counselor may ask you to do, that you’re probably already doing.

5 THINGS A THERAPIST MIGHT SUGGEST IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING, THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY ALREADY DOING

1. YOU SHOULD BE MORE SELF-REFLECTIVE

Women who enter into counseling for cheating after discovery of their husband’s betrayal, often say that they’ve spent years wrestling with questions about their own expectations or behaviors in the marriage. Many of them have already been asking if they were “too critical or sensitive,” or how they could have “communicated better.”

Husbands who have a pattern of manipulation and lying often use their wife’s willingness to look at her own “faults” as a way to distract her and the therapist from seeing the truth.

2. YOUR MARRIAGE CAN’T HEAL IF YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THE PAST

Betrayed wives often want to know more details about their husband’s betrayal or his patterns of behavior after they’ve discovered he has been lying to them and living a double life. It’s a natural part of the healing process. What’s not natural or healthy is for a counselor or a husband to tell a betrayed partner that she needs to “put it in the past” in order for the relationship to move forward.

Men who have lived double lives have already benefitted from their wife’s integrity and her decision to give him the benefit of the doubt over and over again. If he wants to move forward in a healed relationship, he should take responsibility for his deception and be willing to answer questions.

3. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS “TOGETHER”

Many wives are already the solution-focused, repair department of the family.

When there is confusion, they look for a book, a podcast, or a therapist that might help them understand what’s really happening and how to fix it. They’ll schedule the date nights, pray the prayers, make the apologies, and have the conversations with a softer approach.

They’ll try to make their home peaceful and emotionally safe for everyone.

But, if their husband is lying about cheating, using inappropriate media, emotional affairs, or financial betrayal, even in therapy, then none of the above solutions is going to solve the real problem. His lying.

4. COUNSELING FOR CHEATING SUGGESTS YOU RE-COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE

Most wives lean in and work hard to keep their families together after discovering their husband’s betrayal.

But trying harder won’t cure his entitlement. Being more available and more patient won’t cure his dishonesty. Offering more love does not cure his emotional or spiritual abuse.

A wife can pour herself into the marriage until there is almost nothing left of her, and still not fix his motivations for hiding the truth.

5. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

When things feel off in their marriage most women will ask questions or speak up about odd late nights, mood shifts, secrecy, intimacy problems, and the strange feeling in their gut. But their husbands have used these concerns as another opportunity to gaslight, blame-shift, and undermine her instincts and reality.

When a counselor suggests that the betrayed partner should ask more direct questions they’re just adding more pressure on her to mine for truth. The burden of truth and change should rest on the shoulders of the betrayer.

To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse test.

Key Points From this episode:

How Marriage Counseling After Betrayal Misses the Real Issue

How His Lying Undermines Your Confidence and Emotional Safety

Couple Therapy is for People Who Tell The Truth, Not Liars

Moving on After Betrayal is Not as Simple as People Think

Is Online Betrayal Actually Cheating?

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MAKES HIS CHEATING “OUR PROBLEM”

Anne: I have Hannah, a member of our community on today’s episode. Welcome, Hannah.

Hannah: Hi Anne. How are you?

Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don’t we start with your story.

Hannah: Yeah, I am about a year out from finding everything out that changed my life forever. I was married for about 12 years. We had five kids. I had known him most of my life. We were best friends. We’re Christian. I was very active in our church community, and even in high school I was involved in youth work, and I was a huge anti-porn advocate. My husband knew all this about me. We talked about this kind of thing nearly daily, as we’re also raising kids, just like how we protect them from the world.

We prayed every day together, and then one day he decided to drop the bomb on me, that he had been lying to me since before we were married, that he had been watching porn, and that he had also had a four year affair with a colleague. So he decided to come clean to me.

I was completely blindsided. Over the last year, I’ve been realizing the subtle ways, like he was a very good liar, and I do feel like he had this complete double life. I was really grateful to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because it was the only resource I found online that didn’t make me want to throw my computer or phone across the room. Because everything was very much just talking about my part in it, which to me felt so wrong.

WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MISSES EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Hannah: I knew I wasn’t perfect, what human being is? I knew that throughout our whole marriage, I had been self-reflecting. I had been not keeping score. Anytime we had any kind of conflict, I was all about finding solutions. I was always leaning into our marriage and trying harder. Also when it came to the betrayal, the pornography use.

A lot of resources say maybe you didn’t ask, or maybe you were naive. I had asked all the questions. We had all the conversations. I had been checking in all these things, and it was just a lie every time with counseling for cheating.

So to be met with what was your part in it? Or anything like that made me angry right from the start. And I just knew that this isn’t something that I contributed to somehow. And at that, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, that’s definitely how you frame things. This is abuse. Abuse is one sided. That’s my story in a nutshell. It has been an awful year, and I still most days can’t believe this is my life.

That I had this husband, who I thought we were soulmates, best friends. I thought I knew him so well. I’ve been coming to this realization that I could have just gone down to the nearest bar and been like, You sir, you’re attractive. Let’s go get married. And it would’ve been the same outcome. Because I did all the things. We talked about this stuff constantly. I think people think, he was doing this thing and it’s not a big deal.

FINDING OUT HE HAD BEEN LYING THE WHOLE TIME

Hannah: Like it was his private life that he kept private. No, you don’t understand the amount of lies, blatant lies, subtle lies, lies of omission, but also the things that we would do together. Like, we sit down to watch a movie. We weren’t like the average couple who’s just oh, put on HBO. We don’t watch HBO, we look up every movie before we watch it, because we’re protecting our marriage, protecting our family. From all the trash out there. Our kids have minimal screen time, they’re not on devices, so that’s exactly the type of thing we’re trying to protect them from.

So for him to come out and be like, “Oh yeah, by the way, for our entire marriage, I’ve been watching pornography, and I also had a girlfriend for a huge chunk of our marriage.”

Anne: Why now? He’s been lying to you the whole time. I’m sure that’s crossed your mind.

Hannah: Oh, it has. I can tell you what he says versus what I think.

Anne: Probably a lie, right? Since he is lied about everything else.

Hannah: A very close friend of mine called me up and told me that she had discovered that her husband had been watching pornography.

So I was very upset and obviously like always I went to my husband. And the thing that gets me about that is, it’s not the first time this has happened. I would read some horrible story on the internet, in the communities that I was in. And I’d go to my husband and be like, oh, this poor woman, she just found out she has cervical cancer, ‘Cause her husband cheated on her.

I WANTED TO LEAVE, BUT COULDN’T

Hannah: These types of stories. So that alone isn’t enough, because it’s not like it was the first time, but it was someone very close to me. And also close to him.

Anne: I wonder if, because it was someone really close to you. He thought, well, maybe this is the time to tell her because this other person did it.

Hannah: So I was like talking to him every evening when he came home from work about this couple. My heart was breaking for them. I was in constant contact with my friend, checking with her, wanting to spend time with her. So I was actually planning to go away that weekend to spend the weekend with her. And then he dropped the bomb on me before I left.

Anne: Maybe it was to stop you from going.

Hannah: It could have been.

Anne: Because, these liars don’t think too much about long-term consequences, or counseling for cheating.

Hannah: Looking back, something that haunts me a lot is the fact that in those weeks leading up. He asked me, “What would you do if?”

I was obviously caught off guard. I mean, excuse me? Are you trying to tell me something? Like, why would you say that? I told him, “I would pack up the kids, and I would go to my mother’s, and you would maybe never see us again.”

I didn’t mince words. Funny story, my reaction, I was paralyzed. I couldn’t pack up any kids. I was trashed, laying on the floor, not eating or sleeping, not able to drive a car. In my mind, I wanted to leave, but physically could not.

WHEN HE USES THE TRUTH TO MANIPULATE YOU

Anne: I had that same thing where I told my husband that. And then found out I couldn’t do it. I’ve come to believe now. This is 10 years post-divorce, and failed counseling for cheating, that he wanted me to do that. He was like, “Okay, I’m gonna tell her and then she’ll leave.” And because I didn’t. Then, at least in my situation, he was like, “Oh, shoot, now I have to act like I am repenting.” Because he didn’t know what to do when I didn’t do the thing he wanted me to do. Because the same thing, he could have told me a million other times, why did he tell me right then?

Hannah: There were so many moments when I asked him explicitly. Have you done this? Would you do this? Where I asked to check his phone. I felt like a terrible person. I have this amazing, good, trustworthy husband, and I’m being this paranoid, crazy person. And him being like, sure, of course. But obviously sweating bullets, because he knew that there was a possibility that something could happen.

So when he did tell me, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t sleep, but the next morning I made him drive me to my sister’s house. I said we’re leaving right now. I had all these other health issues at the time that I physically can’t drive.

So I think that in his mind he was so deluded, he still thought it was somehow going to be okay. But for me, it was like the whole unraveling of everything.

Like any marriage, we’d had our struggles and then to find out that this was going on underneath it all the whole time, for me it was very much a, what’s left?

I SAW THE SIGNS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE

Hannah: The only thing I was clinging to in this marriage was that you’re this good, faithful, loyal man who’s trustworthy and honest. And turns out you weren’t even that. And I’ve been making all these excuses. He’s tired, he works so hard. The honeymoon phase is over. This is just marriage. So we’re not crazy in love anymore, but we deeply love each other. That’s what I was thinking. And meanwhile, these were all symptoms that he actually didn’t care.

Anne: Oh, that’s so heartbreaking. Before you found out, had you been to couple therapy, had you done marriage intensives or counseling for cheating?

Hannah: There were moments in our marriage where I checked in with him. “I feel like we’re having a lot of petty fights. Are we okay? I feel like you’re ignoring me a lot, like what’s going on?” There were times when I felt like it was getting to the point that, okay, I think we need counseling for cheating.

And I said that to him, and I asked for it, and his reaction was, no, absolutely not. That didn’t surprise me, just because I feel like that’s the way both of us were raised. Our parents think it’s good for someone else, but they’re not gonna do it. “We can get through this. We don’t need some professional meddling in our lives.” Then it would be good for a while, now that I’ve reflected on all these years. I can see it more clearly that he would avoid me and treat me poorly.

Then if I started to question it, he would love bomb me and make it okay. He would bring me flowers or he would say something to make it feel all better.

HOW HE BENEFITTED FROM MY WORK ON THE MARRIAGE

Hannah: I was like relationship low maintenance. I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming all the time. He just had to come home and tell me he loved me and that everything was good, and I just believed him. I would let it go. I thought we went on dates and did things to invest in our marriage, but now that I look back, I planned it, or I nagged you to plan it. And it never was like, “You’re planning these things for me, or for us.”

We actually went to marriage retreats to reconnect. But now looking back at that, it’s just cements the betrayal even more. We’re sitting there talking all day about our relationship. And what we can do differently and how we can improve. And you’re just sitting on all this information. These are all the reasons you’re passive aggressive, angry, a little bit volatile, all these things. That explains a lot. I would feel that way too if I was hiding this entire secret life from you. I would be anxious and irritable.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Hannah: We never did any kind of counseling for cheating. I thought it was communication. I think I am a terrible communicator. And I think you need to work on your communication too. I just leaned in, I read books, did different things. The typical marriage advice is, don’t keep score and forgive your spouse. You shouldn’t be dwelling on their faults. That’s the type of thing I was doing. Which now makes me feel like I’m a giver, he’s a taker. It made me a very easy target, constantly giving into the relationship.

PEOPLE IN HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS DON’T NEED COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, that people in healthy relationships do that naturally. We know that people aren’t perfect. With a healthy relationship with someone who’s not perfect and we’re not perfect, we know that people make mistakes.

We know there’s gonna be communication issues, stuff like that. We don’t have to read a book that tells us that people make mistakes. So the people reading the book, we who married an abusive man. I’m almost like those books should never have been written, because the only people reading them are women who are married to an abusive man.

Hannah: Oh my goodness, you’re so right.

Anne: People in healthy relationships don’t read books like that ’cause they don’t need to. They don’t need counseling for cheating, ’cause they already know. Oh, that was just a communication problem.

Hannah: It makes so much sense. One book I read, it even said in the book, you just need to do this, and this week you should work on giving words of affirmation to your husband. Or plan something for him. And at this point you might be feeling like, what is he doing for me? But don’t reflect on that. And I remember being like, okay, I’m not going to. That was a turning point for me where I cemented into my character, that I am not going to keep score.

WHY NOT KEEP SCORE?

Hannah: If this is neglect, he’s not investing in the relationship, he’s not paying attention to you. And the kind of things I thought was when is the last time he held my hand? Why am I always the one reaching out for physical contact? Why is it that every time he touches me, he wants something more? He doesn’t wanna sit next to me. When we’re out in public, he’s far away from me, and he’s okay with that. Why am I always the one feeling like I’m chasing him? That book shouldn’t have been written.

Anne: No, that’s what I mean. I don’t think people keep score in healthy relationships. They don’t need counseling for cheating. I’m saying this tongue in cheek, but like, why not keep score? What’s wrong with being like, wait a minute, I do all this stuff and he doesn’t. In fact, when it comes to abuse, it’s almost the opposite. Literally, write down these are all the household tasks that I do all the time, and these are the ones that he does.

And then just look at that list, see what that looks like. How many hours a day do we have? And if he’s not abusive, you could take that to him and say, you know what? I actually wrote all this down. And look at the disparity between our household tasks. A non-abusive person would be like. Wow, maybe I should stop watching so much football. Where an abusive person would be like, you don’t respect me at my job! What’s wrong with assessing the truth of the situation, which is essentially what they’re saying when they say don’t keep score. They’re basically saying, “Don’t assess what’s really happening.”

COUPLE THERAPY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH

Hannah: Yeah, when you’re on the abuse side of it, what marriage counselors say is all wrong. None of it works. Which is actually why I wrote to BTR, why I wanted to speak to you. What does counseling for cheating look like if you stay with your partner? Because I feel like with that history of abuse, that never goes away.

If the person does genuinely change and stops all their abusive behaviors, and then you’re rebuilding trust and in this relationship with someone. How do you approach counseling for cheating in the future? Because it’s unethical. Even if it’s 10 years down the road and you’ve stayed together. For the women staying and are rebuilding their trust. What do you do?

Anne: Yeah, so couple therapy is for essentially healthy marriages. It’s for two people who tell the truth, genuinely care about each other, have integrity, and make good choices. And they’re having trouble communicating or something. All the marriages I know that are like that, where they genuinely care about each other, where they’re both honest, they would never need to go to couple therapy. So the whole idea of couple therapy now to me is frankly ridiculous. If it were as healthy as it needs to be to go to couple therapy, you wouldn’t ever need to go.

Hannah: This dynamic seems unethical. The therapist automatically has to side with you. If this was any other kind of abuse, they wouldn’t put you in the same room, and they will have to side with you. So even if you were doing something wrong. They have to look at it through the lens of okay, but you’ve been traumatized.

IS COUNSELING FOR CHEATING UNETHICAL?

Anne: They would ethically have to, but I’ve never met a therapist that does in counseling for cheating. The very foundation of it is family systems theory, basically their ethical standards bind them to not see a perpetrator and a victim. If they do, they have to stop doing the therapy.

Hannah: Right.

Anne: ‘Cause it’s not ethical. So if they’re not noticing the abuse and doing the therapy, that’s unethical. And then the second they noticed it, which should be right away, but most of them aren’t doing screenings for it. They should quit, but most don’t. So I think all couple therapy is not a good idea, because healthy couples who don’t lie to each other don’t need to go to couple therapy.

Hannah: Mm.

Anne: In general.

Hannah: And that does resonate with me. There’s part of me that’s like individual therapy.

Anne: Yeah, the problem with individual therapy in this case is that assumes for the victim that something’s wrong with her. Because the purpose of therapy isn’t to fix what’s wrong with someone else.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: It’s to fix what’s wrong with you.

Hannah: Yeah.

Anne: Therapy for an abuse victim depends on the therapist, victims might need skills. We might need confidence.

Hannah: It is about coping skills. I think I even have a visceral reaction. It’s like when someone loses an arm, it doesn’t grow back. You just learn to cope with it. You’re not healed from it, really. And I feel like that’s how I see my life now. Talking to many people who have experienced this, it stays with you for life.

MOVING ON FROM CHEATING IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS PEOPLE THINK

Hannah: It’s a scar. You don’t forget it. You don’t have this magical I don’t remember anymore. That doesn’t happen. And so I guess for me it’s like for the women who are staying, how do you even frame that? For me personally, I am separated from my husband, we’re not divorced. I’m still trying to make a decision. I don’t wanna be that person who strings him along or is in limbo for years and years, but we have five kids, he’s gonna be in my life, permanently, whether I want him or not.

So I feel like he trapped me there. How do I know it’s abuse? But there are women who choose to stay. And when I look at that, it’s like there’s always this dynamic of abuser and victim. Even if all the abuse stops, it’s like that’s still part of your history.

So how do you deal with that moving forward? Because even therapists who talk about if you decide to stay, then you have to work on yourself. Which like you said, what am I working on? What’s wrong with me?

Anne: Nothing’s wrong with you.

Hannah: You have to commit to the marriage, and you have to stop ruminating, stop bringing up the past, be all in. That language used in counseling for cheating obviously deeply bothers me, because I’m not choosing to remember this.

First of all, it’s like when people say you’re ruminating, no. It’s not even once or twice a day I get this flashback moment. It’s like from the moment I wake up, every thing reminds me all day long. So it’s on a loop all day long. ‘Cause this has been my life. So it’s not like I’m choosing to hold it against him. It’s just, it’s our life.

MAKING A DECISION TO GO OR STAY WHEN IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: Also that’s just not true. Did they tell him, “Well, if you’re gonna be married, you have to stop looking at pornography and lying to her.” And did he do it anyway during counseling for cheating? Yeah, he did.

So you can feel the way you feel. You can not be committed. When I say not to be committed, I don’t mean to cheat on him. I don’t mean that, but I just mean you can be like, yeah, I’m married to him, but I don’t like him and I’m not committed to him as a person. You could still legit do that. So anybody who’s saying, if you’re gonna stay married to him after infidelity after infideliity, then you have to do this and this and this. That’s not true.

Hannah: For me, I’m just thinking about a dynamic of I know all this, but objectively, when I hadn’t had this experience. How I would’ve thought about it. If you’re choosing to stay in a marriage.

If he is genuinely choosing to change, be a good person, I want that. The world does not need another person like him. Good, great, that would be awesome. I don’t know about my personal ability to believe him. I guess that’s what I’m still trying to work out. But I do know that when I’m trying to have empathy and sit in his shoes. And humanize him. Because obviously that’s very difficult for me at this point. He does need to, from a Christian perspective, forgive himself, see himself as a child of God, all these things to have a true conversion.

However, you wanna phrase it if you’re not Christian, genuinely change. I feel like we’re so incompatible now.

FORGIVENESS DOESN’T MEAN RESTORATION OF THE MARRIAGE

Hannah: If I’m staying, my needs and what’s going on in my head all day are exactly the opposite of someone who is trying to love themselves and see themselves as a child of God and needs a cheerleader. Obviously, I’m not capable of doing that, and I’m not going to do that. I don’t think any woman should. I am the survivor over here, and he’s the one who cheated.

I’m the loyal person who can’t even wrap my head around any of the things he’s done, because I loved him so deeply. He didn’t love me at all. And to move forward in a marriage like that. How do you move past, that feels like it’s been thrown off forever. That doesn’t come back.

Anne: However you want, I think is the answer. And you also don’t have to, you can stay married and not move past it.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: There is no right answer. And I think that’s the hard thing for everybody, because the right answer has to be that you have to forgive me and start sleeping in the same bed.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: Well, that’s just more manipulation and more lies, ’cause that’s not true. You can be married and not sleep in the same bed, not live in the same house. There’s like all of these options out there.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: You can do literally whatever you want, but the hard part of it is having the confidence to do what you wanna do.

FINDING CLARITY ABOUT WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING

Anne: Rather than listening to someone who tells you, well, if you’re gonna do this, then you have to do it this way. And I think that’s where a lot of us get tripped up in counseling for cheating.

Hannah: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I got the workbook and worked through. It was very helpful, especially recognizing gaslighting. I think I was a frog in the boiling water. You would hear about all these other people who’ll stay through abuse. How will you do that?

Now when I reflect, how is that me? I saw him as this person I’ve known my whole life. So when he would say things, then he’d say, well, I didn’t mean it. And I believed him, it felt genuine to me.

That’s just him. That’s just us. He is just joking. He doesn’t mean it that way. And he does love me. It didn’t feel that bad to me when it was happening. Even though the logic, hang on a second, you’re just joking. What part of that is funny? I don’t think you’d speak to a colleague this way. Or find myself saying things like, you just changed your story. What is happening here?

Anne: The “excuse or the reason” doesn’t happen until after we call them out on it. So they say something, we call ’em out. Then they say it’s a joke. They don’t say, I’m gonna tell a joke. I know it might hurt your feelings, but I just thought of this. It’s funny, I actually don’t mean it. Are you ready? ’cause I think you might think it’s funny too, and then they say it. No, that would be like someone who’s aware of our feelings, who knows us well.

THERE WAS ALWAYS A GOOD EXPLANATION IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I think things like that about my kids sometimes I’m like, oh my word. This would be so funny to say right now.

So I’ll prepare my children like, Hey, I wanna say this joke. It’s not meant to hurt your feelings. And they laugh and think it’s funny. But that’s different than saying something. And then if you didn’t call him out, if you didn’t say, Hey, that hurt my feelings. Or if you didn’t say, Hey, wait, a colleague wouldn’t say that. He just goes about his day? The only time he says, oh, it’s a joke, or, oh, I didn’t mean it that way, was after you call him out on it.

Hannah: I’d be like, “oh, that makes sense, because I don’t wanna believe you could ever actually be hurtful and think of me that way.” There were moments throughout our relationship where I would question like oh, you’re talking down to me. There was always a good explanation. So when I did the workshop, that was very eye-opening, I saw the patterns of behavior.

It took really stepping back from it because I just believed he didn’t mean it that way. But obviously there are certain words and phrases, no one else uses it any other way. That was eye-opening.

My kids are getting older. A year has passed, and what am I supposed to do with my life? What does God want me to do with my life? What about my children? What’s best for them? These are questions that I find are very circular. I can answer them all.

THE PERSON I THOUGHT I WAS MARRIED TO NEVER EXISTED

Hannah: Obviously, God wouldn’t want anything bad for me. What’s best for me and what keeps me safe is best for my children. I do know that.

Anne: We know God wants you to be safe . Not knowing what the specifics of that are, is okay.

Hannah: I don’t think anyone is like calling me up and pressuring me or anything like that. But people in your community check in, they ask how are you and you’re Chuck? And they’re asking if we’re back together yet. Or have we been to counseling for cheating? I think there’s always that kind of pressure. I have been realizing that it is mostly my own view. Because ultimately, I don’t know what other people think.

I don’t know what actually goes on in their brains. I just know what I think they think and what I think they think often is how I see the world. Even when this first happened, I knew I would tell me to leave. I knew that pretty much instantly, because I’ve had so many conversations with different people.

My own parents were divorced. My dad married his affair partner. I wanted to avoid divorce, I did everything to find a good guy, looked out for all the warning signs, or so I thought. It seems like I am living the worst version of life possible, the worst nightmare come true. And the acceptance of living every day grieving the fact that this person I thought I was married to never existed. And the man that’s before me now is this person I don’t even know. I don’t even recognize. It’s hard to reconcile that this is the guy who’s made all these choices.

ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER?

Hannah: Part of that for me is once a cheater, always a cheater. People say this. It’s not that I believe he can’t change or won’t change, or even that he’s going to do it again. That resonates with me. The once that cheater always cheater. Not just because of the stigma, but because to me, it’s the same thing as a murderer. I know that sounds extreme, but even if you just killed the one guy, we’re not gonna stop calling you a murderer.

Like it has that impact on people’s lives, it changes how we see you to the point where you just earned yourself a new name. It’s the type of thing that doesn’t go away. We as a society try to rehabilitate these people. But if you’re the person who knew that person who did that, they’re a murderer in your mind, just because of how it changed your view. You didn’t know they had the capacity to do that thing, and now that you know that you can’t unknown that even if they never do it again.

Anne: It’s a character issue you can tell by what a cheater says.. There are a lot of people in this world who never do that, like ever.

Hannah: Exactly.

Anne: I’ve never cheated on my husband or lied him for seven years. Good people, when they’re making good decisions, they never do that. And shouldn’t need counseling for cheating.

AN EBOLA ANALOGY FOR COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I fully believe that people can change with or without counseling for cheating. Maybe that is not the right thing for someone who is an abuse advocate to say, but I just believe it in my bones. I can’t not believe it.

The way that I view it is more like, I don’t know if you’ve heard my Ebola analogy. My analogy is Ebola is a thing that you can get treatment for and that you can heal from. But nobody would say hey, move in with this person, or sleep in the same bed with a person who has Ebola, ever, ever, ever. That person’s literally gonna be isolated until they legit do not have Ebola anymore and so I think that that’s the way I think of it.

Is that if they have a little bit of Ebola. I’m not going to be around them. So like my ex for example, he still lies. If he didn’t, he would do some things differently. Like there’s some things that he would be doing with our children that I would be able to see with my own eyeballs. He pays zero and when I say zero I mean legit zero child support, zero alimony, zero things for our children. His relationship with them stinks. The way that he interacts with them stinks. So I can see he still has Ebola right now. So it’s not like I’m gonna be like, oh I can hang out with you now.

Hannah: So I guess the limitations for myself are that like everyone thought he was a great father, a great husband, myself included. And he was involved and he did do all the things. Like we prayed together every day.

Anne: So did we.

THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE IS THE CHOICES HE MADE

Hannah: Can’t tell that he had Ebola in this case. It’s like maybe he has Ebola and he’s just hiding it very well.

Anne: Yeah. I love your point about the murderer. It’s okay to be like, you know what? I don’t really wanna be with someone who’s murdered somebody. So if you were dating someone new, And you said I don’t really want to be with someone who lied to their wife for 4 years and had an affair. And used pornography the whole time That would also apply to him. That’s also fine to say.

So just because people can change doesn’t mean that you owe them anything. It doesn’t mean you have to stick around. It doesn’t mean any of that.

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. The the crux of the issue for me is the choices you’ve made and even if those are in the past. That does bring it back to the marriage counseling for cheating thing. There’s no timeline for these things so you might be rebuilding trust for the next 40 years or till you die. Obviously some people are going to be like I’m not here for that, that’s too hard. When someone has broken your trust so deeply you might always have that catch in your gut, oh, what if?

Anne: It might not even be rebuilding either, it might all be manipulation. This question of are they still lying or not? Even if they’re not can I view them differently now? All of that is hard to process. And there is no right answer and that’s also the hard thing. It would be much easier to be like, if this is here and this is here and this is there then this what I should do.

EVERYBODY’S SITUATION IS DIFFERENT

Anne: Nothing that we do we do at BTR is like that counseling for cheating. Because everybody’s situation is different. Everybody has a different feeling for what they want to do with their life. The only thing I care about is that women know what emotional safety is and that’s their top priority. And they’re working toward that in whatever form that takes for them.

The other thing I really care about is that women are living their own life. There is a part in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop that I love. That’s like what are your dreams, what are your goals? What do you want to do with your life? Knowing that it literally is your one life. When you’re with someone who’s lying to it really feels like your life, my life is on hold. Helping women in whatever way overcome that so that they can start building the life that they want to live.

Hannah: Yes, It’s helpful obviously hearing other people’s stories and trying to work through. I do recognize that everything I’m going through now is through this somewhat narrow lens of my own experience. Some people feel a lot differently, because their experience was different. It’s not a one size fits all.

I was very active in the community and obviously it blind-sided me, just having to take time off from all the things I was involved in. I told him, I’m not explaining this to anyone. If you wanna be accountable, if you wanna prove yourself, go ahead I don’t care. I’m not policing you, I’m not doing anything. I’m just gonna take a step back from everything. I didn’t want to be the person checking his phone. ‘ Cause in my mind there’s no point.

I CAN’T CONTROL YOU IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Hannah: I can’t control you. You hid this so well for so long. You were already pretending to be open and transparent. Also you already let me go through your phone you already pretended like you had nothing to hide. So with his job, he travels. I knew where you were before cause you were where you said you were I just didn’t know you were with someone. You could have a whole second family and I wouldn’t know. There is no point in me trying.

He said he genuinely wanted to change, that he didn’t want to be that person anymore. He’s like, I don’t deserve to be with you. I don’t know.

Anne: I know that could either be true or it could be manipulation. In your case, the way that you’re feeling right now, for you, it doesn’t matter and the reason I’m saying that is because even if he is telling the truth you can still make different decisions. Just because he told the truth doesn’t mean that you owe him something. Or that you have to go to counseling for cheating.

As a Christian myself, in the scriptures over and over it talks about forgiveness in the context of debt. That’s what Jesus is talking about, He’s like forgive the people indebted to you so that you’re not stressed out all the time, By like hey you owe me money, you owe me money. If you forgive the debt they can go on their way and you never have to see them again.

He owes you a good marriage. If you forgive him, you could rip up the contract and be like, I’m forgiving you of the debt that you owe me of a good marriage and we can move apart.

THE GOOD NEWS

Anne: In the scriptures forgiveness is a way of moving away from someone, not toward them. So I think it’s weird that so many Christians have interpreted it that way when it’s continually used in the context of debt. There’s just different ways of processing it and you will figure it out. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders and whatever the right thing is for you. You will do it. That’s the good news.

Hannah: Well, thank you.

Anne: Well, you are awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me to talk about cheating and counseling for cheating today, Hannah.

Hannah: Thank you for having me. It’s been really helpful And I hope that this conversation helps other women who come and find your channel. I know that your channel has been really helpful for me. It’s been wonderful meeting you and talking to you. So thanks for everything you do, Anne.

Anne: Thank you.

IS ONLINE BETRAYAL CHEATING?

Anne: And now you’re gonna be introduced to my mom. The first time I aired this, women were like, “I love your mom. She’s awesome.” And I love her too.

So a lot of women wonder if their husband is “just” looking at inappropriate media online is that cheating and do we need counseling for cheating? I think it is, and my mom thinks it is. In fact, the word we use is adultery. And so here’s a conversation with my mom about why a husband secretly using inappropriate media online is actually, and technically adultery. Some husband’s actually secretly film their wives.

My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how inappropriate media isn’t just viewing videos, or pictures. It almost always involves self-pleasure.

It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation.

COUNSELING FOR CHEATING? IT’S CHEATING BECAUSE OF WHAT HE’S ACTUALLY DOING

Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex?

Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking.

But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman.

So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from. There wasn’t talk about counseling for cheating.

WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL

Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart. That isn’t the focus in counseling for cheating.

Anne: Many people don’t think that it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience that someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer.

Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean …

Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video.

Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation.

ONLINE BETRAYAL IS ADULTERY

Anne: Through the masturbation part. My Mom’s idea, and I liked it, is for all of us rather than saying pornography is to say virtual sex all the time. Which is gonna be hard because everyone says pornography. But I’ve started saying it, and it’s actually been kind of cool. Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a virtual reality, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery?

Mom: I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery.

Anne: Regardless of how they got there.

Mom: Right.

Anne: They’re a real person.

Mom: Yes, they are a real person.

Anne: And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself.

HOW HE HIDES HIS ONLINE BETRAYAL IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Mom: Maybe I’m wrong, maybe when people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing.

Anne: Or a video.

Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it.

Anne: When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it.

Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that?

Mom: Yeah.

Anne: No one.

Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation.

Anne: Right

Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing.

Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer.

Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses.

Anne: They’re having sex with themselves.

Mom: Yes.

RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL

Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. If you relate, comment below. Do you think it’s adultery and why?

Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship.

Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication.

It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion. Is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it and counseling for cheating. Again If you relate, comment below.

We’d also like you to share this on social media, see what other people think. You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. So many people don’t know what is exploitative. To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company.

Mom: Or bad company.

Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence.

Mom: Dangerous.

Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew?

Mom: Matthew chapter 5.

Anne: I love my Mom.

WHAT WE’VE LEARNED ABOUT ONLINE AND EMOTIONAL BETRAYAL

Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex.

If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. And is lying emotional abuse? If you agree with us, maybe because your husband does this with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about.

We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different.

We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our daily support group schedule. We’d love to see you in a group session today.