Betrayal Trauma Recovery

If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes.

HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE

1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE

Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you.

 It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming.

Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating.

2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES

You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.”

Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits.

3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP

 If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed.

If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior.

4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING

 You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all.

Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird.

5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

 If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself.

But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing.

If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our free emotional abuse test to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse.

Key takeaways from the interview:

Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits

When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse

How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse

Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES

Anne: I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna.

Welcome. Cynthia.

Cynthia: Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here.

Anne: So Cynthia, let’s start with your story.

Cynthia: In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits.

We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one.

Anne: They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING

Cynthia: absolutely.

On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done?

Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month.

He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him.

I was on antidepressants.

We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?”

And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment.

HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN

Anne: So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.”

This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying.

Cynthia: In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that.

And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks.

Anne: That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks.

It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS

Anne: The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Anne: That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Anne: Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable.

I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “no, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. And so I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him?

Cynthia: Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst.

HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING

Cynthia: The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted.

Anne: I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends.

Cynthia: I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well.

Anne: Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography.

But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explain why he was okay on vacations with other people. Because when you’re on vacation with more people, you could be talking to your mom or friends, and he could say something like, “Oh, hey, I’m just gonna run over here to the store real quick.”

And you wouldn’t say, oh, I’ll go with you. You’d be like, oh, cool. I’ll talk to my mom. When other people are around, he can sneak away, use porn. It’s just way harder to do what he wants to do when you are the only person around.

Cynthia: And I also noticed a shift in his behavior in the evening, so we would very rarely go to bed together. His excuse was that he wasn’t tired. I think he was using in those times, as well.

THEY DON’T VIEW WOMEN AS PEOPLE

Anne: There’s a huge connection between pornography use and men with covert narcissist traits. Women might think their husband’s don’t use pornography, that he is cleanbrowsing. I’m like, wait, tell me all the clues. And they’ll tell me and I’ll be like, that clue points to pornography. That one points to pornography. So, the likelihood is so high. It also means that they don’t view women as people.

Cynthia: Oh yeah, absolutely.

I remember I had a lot on with work, coming home every night and it was like I was going into this roundabout like round and round and round talking about nothing and never resolving anything. He was traveling a lot. And during that period where he was traveling, I had a bit of mental space. That’s when I discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

I wrote this into Google, “When your husband blames you for being upset about his behavior.” And your website came up, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And I was like, “Wow. I’m being gaslighted.” And that was like my D-Day. That’s when I first started to discover that I was in an abusive relationship.

I just started to feel. I’m not alone. It’s not me. I saw the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I immediately signed up for it and I did the whole thing, in one night. It’s really easy to follow.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: HOW LABELING HIM ISN’T HELPFUL

Cynthia: I was so grateful for the website. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. I was listening to those every day and then I signed up for the BTR group coaching. If I hadn’t discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know what I would’ve done because no psychologist was able to help me.

BTR Group sessions were better therapy for me than a therapist, because I felt understood.

I have not met any therapist that can explain things in the way that you’re able to, Anne. I really appreciate that because I feel like some of these tags, are being overly used these days.

Anne: Those labels tend to explain why he does it rather than focusing on just the plain old fact that he does it. It doesn’t matter why he is abusive, he’s abusive.

I don’t really care why he’s lying. He’s lying. I like focusing on what is happening rather than why it’s happening.

Because the focus on why tends to end up accidentally taking women into, well then if I understand the why, like he’s a narcissist or he has childhood trauma or something, then you keep your focus on him. like, how can I help him? Or how can I solve this? Even how do I explain it to other people? Which still keeps you in that vortex.

Cynthia: Yeah. My psychologist didn’t really understand what was happening.

SUPPORT OF THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP SESSIONS

Cynthia: I remember hearing, one of the podcasts when you interviewed another lady and she was saying about going in this roundabout. You get into a discussion and you can’t get off the roundabout. And it got to the stage where every time I came home from work, it was like I was being sucked into the black hole again. Discussing something and never resolving it.

The support of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions made me realize that this is someone who doesn’t care about me or my feelings. And I also had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery one-on-one coaching session with one of the BTR coaches to decide, should I really just separate from this man? I’m living a normal life now, and able to go out and socialize. I’m promoting this to every woman that is in an abusive cycle.

Anne: Thank you. You and women like you are exactly why I do this, because we’re the same. I went through the same thing. I know the confusion. And it’s just awful when you go to therapy and you can’t get help or when you’re going to clergy and they’re giving you the wrong information. It’s so hard to navigate. So thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing this. ‘Cause, if more women knew about it, I think we could really save women from years of pain in dealing with their husband’s covert narcissist traits.

Cynthia: I would not have been able to recover without all of the material that you have. Especially, during the divorce process. It really helped me because I decided to use the best solicitor I could find that could manage the transaction with him. Removing myself from having any interaction with him, really helped.

HE’S USING HER INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM AGAINST HER

Cynthia: So I can live my happy life now.

Anne: That is my life mission. It’s what I focus on every day, all day long.

Cynthia: I have a really good friend her daughter is in an abusive relationship cycle, and she’s bought the BTR Workshop. But the problem we have is we can’t get her to Betrayal Trauma Recovery . Because she thinks that maybe we’re pushing her for the divorce and we’re not doing that.

And what I say to my friend is, ” Well, the great thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is they don’t promote divorce, actually. Your daughter can keep herself safe and protect the children.

So anyway, I bought her the Workbook. She’s gonna be fine when she sees the truth, but she doesn’t want to educate herself on what to do.

Anne: I wouldn’t even say she doesn’t want to, she’s naturally being very confused. That is going to feel bad. I’ve talked to so many women who say something like, I’ve been praying and praying and praying about it, and it just can’t be that because it doesn’t feel right.

I get that because we need to get back in touch with our intuition. Your intuition is warning you, something’s wrong. You can feel that and they’re interpreting it through, “Well, it’s wrong. And so i’m gonna keep trying to talk to him, I’m gonna keep trying to work this out.”

So he’s using her internal, warning system against her. Of course it’s going to feel bad. It’s abuse and even when you’re doing the right thing, it’s still going to feel bad.

IT’S ONLY GOING TO WORK WHEN SHE’S READY

Cynthia: I have this other friend who’s been in this cycle for six years. I keep sending her your podcast. It’s too scary for her. There must be thousands and thousands of women like this, feeling in this fog, and they just can’t get out. So when she’s ringing up her mum to say, “Hey, Chuck just did this, he just screamed at me or punched the wall.” What can the mum say to help her? Is there anything apart from just listening?

Anne: Listening’s good to help women deal with the confusion around their husband’s covert narcissist traits. I found that women I meet in my congregation, for example, I’ll be like, I know what to do here. And I take it over to them. They don’t tend to watch it. Because they’re like, I don’t need this. I’ve got my therapist kind of a thing. And that’s really sad. ’cause then I see them in that same cycle for years and years and years. And I keep asking, have you watched it? And they’re like, no, I don’t have time.

So it’s women like you who are like, I’m gonna enroll in this. Who actually see the value in it.

Cynthia: The sad thing about that though is the BTR Workshop, it doesn’t just make you feel seen. It also can help you prevent being with an unhealthy person in the future. Whether that be a friend, whether it be, unhealthy family members. Once you start to know the signs, there’s so many self reflective exercises. It’s very empowering, for women to go through that. Especially when they’re in a time of need. I agree with you. That’s why I said to my friend, “It’s only gonna work when she’s ready.”

IF THEIR HUSBAND HAS BEEN MANIPULATING THEM WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

Anne: The other problem is that if their husband has been manipulating them and using covert narcissist traits. And they’re going to a therapist. They’ve gone to multiple therapists, they’ve gone to multiple clergy and they’ve tried all these things. Everyone is like, “This is what to do.” And it never works.

Then why in the world would this random lady be the answer? She’s just like everyone else. What else is she gonna tell me? It’s really hard to be like, I promise the BTR Workshop is nothing like anything you’ve seen before.

Cynthia: Absolutely.

Anne: Not what any therapist is gonna tell you. Because they haven’t experienced it, they can’t really understand what I’m talking about. I had to set it up step by step to really understand it. Because there’s no way to just explain it. It goes into extreme depth, but it’s very clear. If I try to explain it without the videos, which I did for years. It just got all muddled up.

Cynthia: No, you need the videos.

Anne: Because the visual, seeing it is what helps it click for women.

Cynthia: I was wondering, as we’re talking now for all these women that are going to these therapists. How about if they were educated on this? Because it feels like that’s really the only avenue to reach those women watching the workshop videos.

I STARTED FEELING BETTER AS I DID THE BTR WORKSHOP

Anne: I’ve had people do it, then they go to therapy. Or do other things like art therapy. And do that for years. And then they’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait. There was that Workshop. I gotta do that again. They do it again. And they’re like, Ahhh!

Cynthia: What I loved about the whole thing, is I needed help immediately when I had my D-Day discovery, where I was like, wow, I’m being gaslit. So I have this recording now. I wanted to know what I could do, and the BTR Workshop enabled me to just do that.

And I think I started, eight in the evening and I couldn’t stop. I was starting to feel better as I was working through it. Like, wow, I’m starting to see the light and I feel good.

I’ve had very expensive therapists. I’m talking thousands for just a weekend retreat. And the Workshop helped me tenfold. Because I was able to have the tools to take care of me.

Anne: I appreciate you and any of the other listeners out there who are getting the word out about BTR, to everybody that you can, because I kind of get lumped in the same category as maybe like a covert narcissist traits influencer or something. Rather than realizing the services that we have here and the information in the workshop is very solid.

Cynthia: Oh yeah.

Anne: Rather than just “selling some online course.”

IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY

Cynthia: Yeah, it’s been very well thought out, and it takes you on a journey of discovery about your husband’s or your partner’s true character. And then it gives you specific tools, to protect yourself from covert narcissist traits so you’re in a safe place. It’s for women that are in a relationship that don’t want to leave the relationship to protect themselves at home, maybe in home separation. It’s for women that want to educate themselves, that want to understand why they’ve been feeling like they’ve been living in this fog.

When I’ve been joining the group sessions, there’s been women of all different stages of the recovery. There’s people like me that were in the initial discovery. For me, the workshop is the beginning of the recovery journey, and you really have to start there to know that you are not the problem. I mean, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve done. It’s better than anything. It’s helped me the most in my life.

Anne: Thank you. It’s such an honor to hear your story and it feels really good that it’s helping people. Especially because sometimes I feel like I have this amazing information and there’s also no risk.

There’s a lot of risk to therapy. It’s expensive and it’s a lot of time. And I don’t think people realize how risky it is. Whereas our BTR Workshop is zero risk. It’s not too expensive, and it doesn’t take a ton of time. And listening to the Betrayal Trauma Podcast is also zero risk. There’s just this one little tiny risk, and that is that your whole life might change.

Cynthia: Yeah.




COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS CAN BE EXHAUSTING AND CONFUSING

Anne: I guess that is the risk. And that seems too risky, maybe for some people. Anyway, thank you Cynthia. I so appreciate your help, and spreading the word and sharing your story today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Cynthia: Thank you. It’s been wonderful to be here. And please, uh, continue doing all the great work you’re doing.

Anne: I’m so grateful to Cynthia for sharing her story. Her experience shows how exhausting and confusing these covert narcissist traits can be when you’re in the thick of it. So next we’re gonna shift gears a little bit.

One question I hear often from women who are doing the work of healing is, “How do you start trusting yourself again and how do you make sure you don’t miss those subtle red flags of this covert narcissism if you ever start dating again?”

Two other members of our community, Maisie and Lorna talk about what these patterns look like if you’ve left a narcissistic abuser.

But before we hear their stories, I’m gonna share a little bit about my own dating history.

Anne: I didn’t get married until I was 30 and I dated so much before I met my ex-husband. At that time, I thought I had a really strong self worth. When I met him, was like, this is the man I’ve been waiting for. I have no regrets.

EXPERIENCE WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS WHILE DATING

Anne: I’m so grateful that I married my ex because I wouldn’t have my kids or the life that I have now without his amazing contributions that he’s made to my knowledge about emotional and psychological abuse and narcissists. Um, I’m not gonna diagnose my ex as a narcissist per se, but when you read the definition of narcissist, he definitely has those characteristics.

So I don’t really want to go back in time to avoid marrying him. But I didn’t do some things that I would do now if I were dating.

My main problem was I laid it out on the table. This is exactly what I want. I would talk a lot. And my talking was the perfect setup because all they had to do was agree with me and nod their heads. And I thought I’d met the man of my dreams. If I date now, I don’t say very much, and I ask them questions and then observe , because I don’t want to put all my cards on the table and say, I love Star Wars. Me too. I love Indiana Jones. Me too. Rather I say, what kind of movies do you like?

When you’re having a conversation with them, do they ask you questions about yourself and your life or do they monologue and then they let you monologue. So you feel like they’re a really good listener because you talk and talk and talk and they listen. Try pulling back on your conversation and just see if he listens, when you just say one thing. Okay. I want to do this and then pause. And see how he responds when you give very short answers without a lot of context or without a lot of explanation.

MAISIE TELLS HER STORY

Anne: Maisie, can you tell us just a tiny bit of your story about dealing with covert narcissist traits in relationships?

Maisie: I was married for 10 years. Even before I was actually married, I had maybe three bad relationships, one which was violent. The guys I have tended to get in relationships with have been just emotionally unavailable or not being able to show affection.

Women can get confused. And I think that’s probably why I was confused before I really researched it to try and help myself is. People think abuse is just violence or really severe mental abuse. Is infidelity abuse? Actually like a lot of intricate parts of a relationship, someone cheating on you or someone being emotionally unavailable and withholding affection and you know you come home and they just don’t want to be around you or don’t want to talk to you and that kind of thing is abusive. So I didn’t really know that I had low self esteem.

I knew there was something not right. Cause you ask yourself, why does this keep happening to me? I have two children now, two daughters. That’s with my husband, who I was with. And when we split up and I ended that relationship, I was really at rock bottom. That’s probably the lowest point I’ve ever been.

That was only three years ago. We separated. And I think the whole year I must have read about a hundred self help books. I mean I just read night and day. Every spare minute I had, I read. I didn’t really go out much or socialize. I thought I have to help myself because there’s something wrong here.

IT ISN’T UNTIL YOU HIT ROCK BOTTOM THAT YOU DO SOMETHING

Maisie: Because of all these continuous cycles I was putting myself in. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of women. You go along, you think you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it isn’t until you hit rock bottom that you’ll actually do something about it. Doing everything I could to help me, and I remember at the time thinking, I wish there was somewhere I could go, something affordable. I was on my own with my two children, just ended the marriage, so finances and everything was changing for me.

Obviously, at the same time, I was also working as a domestic abuse advocate, so I’m working with high risk victims at work, and I’m going through my own thing as well. It just made me completely reflect on everything, with everything that I’d researched and, you know, learned for myself, trying to pull myself out of this hole.

Anne: When you set out to discover what your “problem” was, you discovered that you do not have a problem.

Maisie: That’s right. Yeah.

TRUSTING YOURSELF AGAIN AFTER EXPERIENCING COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

Anne: . Lorna , can you speak to that for a little bit?

Lorna: Yeah, when you’re in a relationship like that, all you do is overcompensate, you’re always thinking it’s your fault, you should be doing more, you should be a better person. It’s almost like your whole life revolves around trying to please this person.

When you get to that rock bottom place, I’ve been in exactly the same place, where I want to just be out of this universe. I felt like I cannot deal with this pain anymore. My ex partner, who I have children with, he was exactly the same. We have a very similar story with that.

I just couldn’t believe that I had children with a person who treated me so badly. Thinking, okay, well, he’s doing this because of who I am. It’s not because of who he is. It was exhausting. I would do everything I could to try and please this person. It never happened, until one day I just thought, I cannot do this anymore.

Or I thought it was going to kill me, I did. Now looking back, I think there must have been some kind of inner strength within you to do that. All I could do was really reflect on and think to myself, I cannot allow this to happen to me again. I only live once. I need to have the best quality of life for me and my children. And I will never allow that to happen again. And I can’t control what he done. I can’t control about what half the men do out there. But I can control how I act on it, and I can control my happiness. And I am on my own now.

HE SAYS HE’S GOING TO CHANGE

Lorna: And all I think about is my own happiness and my children’s happiness.

Maisie: When you’re in a good place and you’re going into a relationship.

It’s a win win situation. A few years ago, I don’t know what I was willing to tolerate. I would just see, oh, this guy’s gorgeous, oh, he’s got a good job, he’s so nice, he’s treating me so amazing. And then I could find out, oh, well, he may be cheating on me. Oh, okay, well, I’ll just give him another chance. I’ll just give him one more chance. He’s saying he’s going to change. So I’ll just give him one more chance. So that’s why Know your worth and know your boundaries.

Anne: When women really know their worth. Many abusers accuse them of being selfish, or prideful or not respecting men. What are your thoughts about dating after recovering from being abused by someone with covert narcissist traits?

Lorna: It’s a peaceful silence within you. All your power and all the light comes from within. A lot of the times, the narcissist is the light and life of the party. I think a lot of people that you do see as really outgoing, they’ve got lots of issues right underneath. And no matter what kind of personality you have, if you stick to your beliefs and your values, you live by what you believe, because you’re not going against anything just to please other people.

Maisie: It can be misconstrued even by women that they think, yeah, you’re manipulating a situation. This is treating men badly. No, it’s not. It’s all about you knowing what you’re worth, having the ability to be able to make choices and be confident about them.

GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT

Maisie: I mean, I never used to be able to make a decision. I used to have to run to my mum forever. Mum, I don’t know what to do. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? And now I’m like, it’s my decision. Women have got a lot to give.

Anne: Yeah, after covert narcissist traits abuse, you might have that value conflict of being confident in what you want, but then also giving people the benefit of the doubt or wanting people to like you. And that’s totally understandable. something I always say to my kids and something that I apply in dating. Don’t put your best foot forward because you don’t want them to fall in love with your foot. You want them to fall in love with you.

Well, I appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for sharing just a tiny bit of your story.

Maisie: Well, thank you for having us.

Lorna: Thank you so much. It’s been lovely.

Anne: And to our listeners, think about what you think women should look for after narcissistic abuse. If you relate, comment below.

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If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone.

Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached?

Why women need thiese bible references

In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name.

Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty.

The Marriage Bible Reference For Women in a Confusing Marriage

A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax.

In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found.

Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy.

Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal.

Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as:

His need

Her obligation

A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity

For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden:
“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test.

The Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored.

Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm.

1. “Deliver Us From Evil” — Matthew 6:13

Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.”
Deliver.

The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it.

To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study.

2. “Guard Your Heart” — Proverbs 4:23

“Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.”

If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally.

3. “Resist the Devil” — James 4:7

“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation.

4. “Put On The Armor of God” — Ephesians 6:10–18

Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real.

The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself.

Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves.

5. “God Is Refuge” — Psalm 46:1

“God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.”

Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God.

6. “Hate What Is Evil” — Romans 12:9

“Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.”

Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself.

How The Wrong Interpretation of a Marriage Bible Reference Hurt Generations of Women

Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that…

“She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.”

“All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.”

“Her body is the solution to his sin problem.”

The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have

Lower marital satisfaction

Higher pain

Greater emotional disconnection

Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience:

Higher mutual satisfaction

Better intimacy

Greater physical responsiveness

The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage.

What This Means for Women With Children

If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you.

Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection.

Examples in real life might look like:

Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.”

Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.”

Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously.

Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance.

Reframing the “Marriage Bible Reference” Requirement

Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness.

If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home.

The Bible does speak about marriage.

But it also repeatedly commands believers to:

Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22)

Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13)

Seek wisdom (James 1:5)

Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4)

Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances.

Transcript: Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women.

Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say.

So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended.

After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place?

Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing

Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff.

But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people.

And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy.

Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did.

Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work.

Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women

Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one.

So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition.

Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car.

Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways.

Biblical Perspective On Intimacy

Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people.

So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse.

Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards.

Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom.

Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction

Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that.

When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right.

Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car.

It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur.

The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women

Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly.

Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing.

And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.”








That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state.

Personal Experiences & Struggles

Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will.

Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this?

How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted?

Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything.

Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy

Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home.

Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers.

Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman?

Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings.

Trying To Change People’s Minds

Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this?

I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked.

And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is.

Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense.

Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are.

Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws

Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women?

Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need.

And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no.

Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him.

Sheila: Yeah, exactly.

Anne: It’s like air and food.

Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe.

Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.”

Marriage Bible References Don’t Promote Marital Coercion

Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart.

Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No.

Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent.

John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about.

Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look

Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle?

Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone.

Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her.

This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross.

Treating Women Like Objects

Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either.

You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects.

So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people?

Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life.

Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity

Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight?

What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female.

So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say.

And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth?

Respecting Women As Whole People

Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything.

And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men.

Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat?

And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun.

Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse

Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach.

I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect.

Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust.

The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault.

Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone

Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs.

Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem.

And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone.

And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him.

Anne: Wow.

Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically.

A Disturbing Comparison

Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen.

But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone.

Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this.

We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used.

Processing Trauma From Bad Advice

Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years?

Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it.

And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women.

The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that.

Measuring The Harm Of Incorrect Interpretations of Marriage Bible References

Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it.

Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow.

So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved.

Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from.

The Problem With Frequency Over Quality

Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you.

Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone.

And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt?

Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world.

Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does?

Measure Of A Healthy Marriage

Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers.

So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3.

And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything.

Anne: Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat.

Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to.

Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message of Incorrect Interpretations of Scripture

Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message.

And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against.

We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it.

Anne: Yeah.

Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob?

Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob?

Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it.

The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy

Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks.

And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough.

And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it.

This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem.

Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection

Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do.

If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours.

Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it.

Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy.

Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night.

A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health

Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem.

So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all.

I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for.

Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally.

Women Tend To Outscore Men

Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men.

And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy.

And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you.

Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her.

Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is.

Changing Beliefs

Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through.

And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things.

Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out.

But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier.

The Importance of Setting Boundaries

Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately?

Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait.

I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries in marriage with their husband.

They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority.

Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem

Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing.

Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me.

Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting.

Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority

Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident.

Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern.

But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace?

And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way.

The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace

Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man.

Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband.

They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage.

I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you.

Pray For Deliverance

Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife.

Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through.

It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer.

Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good.

Encouragement For Women: Speak Up

Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong.

And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do.

It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend.

You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister.

Finding Emotional Health & Safety

Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people.

And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people.

Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that.

Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth.

Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.

Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg.

See If Your Husband is Taking Advantage of You: 3 Ways

1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING

Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed?

Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time.

2. He LIEs TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY

 If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online.

Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough.

3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION

 If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.

 If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

In this transcript you’ll find the following points:

Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust

If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence

Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage

The Impact on Children of His Exploitation

Transcript: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha.

Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me.

I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device.

That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries.

WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY

Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps?

Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t.

Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair.

Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed.

SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE

Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better.

He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps.

Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually.

Misha: It actually was.

Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist.

Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000.

Anne: Whoa.

FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION

Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us.

Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding.

Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time?

Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it.

I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER

Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information.

Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days.

Anne: Good for you.

Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer.

Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone?

Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM

Anne: Like thirst traps sort of-ish.

Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday.

I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.”

I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead.

HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING

Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Misha: He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning.

I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house.

HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER

Misha: It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him.

I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me.

So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.”

And I said, “It is him.”

Anne: He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING

Misha: Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed.

Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam.

Anne: Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it.

Misha: Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.”

Anne: Really.

Misha: I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?”

Anne: And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries.

Misha: Exactly.

Anne: It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position.

Misha: He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time.

THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM

Anne: Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow.

Misha: No, they said, “He is the victim.”

Anne: Wow! Okay.

Misha: He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage.

Anne: There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them.

Misha: We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites.

AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT

Anne: Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious.

Misha: They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it.

Anne: They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children?

Misha: They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me.

Anne: Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem.

Misha: Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call.

Anne: So then you’re not protected. That was scary too.

Misha: I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk.

Anne: What?

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND HE CLAIMS ADDICTION

Misha: I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him.

Anne: But that only benefits him and not you.

Misha: Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him.

Anne: Oh.

Misha: I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.”

And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?”

“I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Misha: I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat.

Anne: But we know that’s not true.

Misha: He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.”

Anne: Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography?

Misha: Yeah.

Anne: Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay.




HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE

Misha: Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.”

Anne: Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage.

Misha: Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?”

And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.”

Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once.

Anne: Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military.

Misha: Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care.

Anne: Did he react to you filing for divorce?

Misha: He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him.

Anne: He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy.

HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER

Misha: He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the trauma process.

He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care.

Anne: That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what?

Misha: Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children.

it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids.

He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. t was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN

Misha: i He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen.

Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee.

Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children.

Anne: It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children.

Misha: Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.”

Anne: Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too.

Misha: And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.”

I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN

Misha: And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.”

Anne: Well, at the very least, not have custody.

Misha: Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing.

Anne: It doesn’t make a difference.

Misha: It doesn’t matter.

Anne: Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material.

Misha: Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer.

Anne: I have found the Living Free Workshop helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW

Anne: If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her?

Misha: When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. And she told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” The best way to leave a narcissist husband is right away.”

For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to.

Anne: Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap.

LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE

Anne: I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support.

Misha: I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things.

Anne: I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married?

Misha: Oh, that was my thing.

Anne: What do they think marriage is?

Misha: If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “Am I over my ex the best way to know?” Well, I can look back at all the facts.

Anne: Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye.

I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE

Anne: The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized.

Misha: Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children.

Anne: Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the Living Free strategies and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share.

Misha: Thank you for having me on.

When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about boundaries in marriage.

women need boundaries in marriage after broken trust

They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like:

How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful?

How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting?

Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me?

When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her Clarity After Betrayal Workshop.

“Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?”

Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG

SO, How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage When Every Time I Try Things Just Get Worse?!

Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement.

Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as:

If/Then Statements

Ultimatums

Statements of desires or values

Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation.

3 Steps to Establishing Effective Boundaries In Marriage

You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship?

Identify The Cause Of The Harm

The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm.

Ask yourself:

Do I feel emotionally safe in my home?

What specifically makes me feel unsafe?

When do I feel the least emotionally safe?

When do I feel the most emotionally safe?

If you want to go deeper, take my free emotional abuse test.

You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm.

Step 2: Separate Yourself From the Harm

After identifying the cause, ask yourself:

What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?

This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach.

Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions.

For some women, that action might look like:

Closing a door

Putting in headphones

Blocking a phone number

Limiting communication to email

For others, it may mean:

Physical separation

Filing for divorce

Reporting a crime

Creating distance to observe safely

The key question is not: Did I say the right words?

The key question is:
Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm?

Step 3: Measure Whether the Boundaries In Marriage Are Working

Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable.

Are you experiencing:

Less anxiety?

Less chaos?

More mental clarity?

Physical calm?

Emotional stability?

If the answer is yes, your boundary is working.

If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat.

Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior.

They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you.

Ask Yourself This Question:

After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?

As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime.

Transcript: How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage? What You Need To Know

Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense.

They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him.

So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.”

And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.”

And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries.

Introducing StrategIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY

Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this.

And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Batrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on.

There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points.

Metaphor: Property Line & Trespassing

Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence.

So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage.

And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life.

So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm?

How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” Your abusive husband’s therapist may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him.








Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist.

Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him.

The Importance Of Emotional & Psychological Safety

Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety.

The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries in marriage? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t.

Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing.

But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.”

And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar.

How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Mental & Physical Actions for Safety

Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries in marriage. I detail a lot in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. It gives specific directions for “how do I set boundaries in marriage?”

But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more.

Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the workshop is for.

Understanding Different Levels Of Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, covers different levels of effective boundaries. It covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse.

So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation.

We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now.

And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do.

Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” I hate it when my husband lies to me about small things. Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs.

Boundaries In Marriage Help You To Be Safe

Anne: So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you.

Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety.

Metaphor: How Would You Keep Yourself Safe If Someone Had Ebola?

Anne: Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.”

In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get.

Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola.

The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.”

Continuing With Ebola Metaphor

Anne: The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious.

So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital.

All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care.

Creating A Protective Barrier That Actually Keeps You Safe

Anne: You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication.

So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter.

You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors.

Real-Life Example: When Carol Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse.

Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.”

She said, “You have to find an addiction recovery therapist, a certified CSAT who is male.” So her husband found himself a male therapist.” She also considered 12 step for wives of addicts. But things continued to be bad for Carol. The entire time this was happening, she was exposed to his emotional and psychological abuse. Even though she was resisting abuse and doing the best she could.

Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was so traumatized and exhausted.

She enrolled in the Workshop, and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned.

Real-Life Example: When Olivia Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do.

Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication.

And then worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing.

Real-Life Example: When Elise Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries.

With the help of one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions, she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house.

She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better.

Elise was able to stop long term affects from emotional abuse from her husband. And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.”

Let Me Know How You Have Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries.

If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.

If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment.

FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME

1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU

Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away.

However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you.

So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first.

2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM

A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not.

 Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate.

3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION

If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it.

Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner.

4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME”

After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching “affordable relationship counseling near me” or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices.

In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court.

5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR

 Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home.

So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it.

To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of.

TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABELE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her.

Welcome, Aliya.

Aliya: Thank you.

Anne: Let’s start with how you met him.

Aliya: I met him online through his network, taking classes and such.

After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling.

Anne: Were you paying for his services?

Aliya: There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.”

Anne: Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him.

HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD”

Aliya: At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me.

Anne: So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement.

Aliya: Exactly.

Anne: In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This marriage therapy isn’t working. Can you talk about how like it first felt?

Aliya: Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that.

He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that.

HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES

Aliya: It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally.

Anne: I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of signs of an abusive therapist in this situation.

Aliya: When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel.

Anne: Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples?

Aliya: The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something.

I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME

Aliya: One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point.

I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat.

There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years.

That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good.

EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER

Anne: How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match?

Aliya: He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up.

Anne: So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything?

Aliya: It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-counseling for at least another year after that.

IT’S A LITTLE CULTISH

Anne: It sounds very wishy washy. If someone isn’t paying for services, there’s no professional relationship in terms of the exchange of a fee is it like a church? What’s going on?

Aliya: And it’s not well defined. That is the problem. I mean, you’re paying with your time, so you get 45 minutes. I get 45 minutes. If we have to cut it short on your turn, then I owe you the remainder of the time. Everything has to be equal in that regard. And nobody gets to dominate the conversation. Nobody gets one way time unless you agree to make it up later. It’s not well-defined.

Anne: Which is hard because if you’re not paying them, how would you define that relationship? It kind of sounds a little bit commune-ish. Did it feel like that?

Aliya: It’s a little cultish. And I think that’s his desire is to have a commune, really.

Anne: Oh really?

Aliya: Yeah.

Anne: Living in a place where someone else made me dinner, but they didn’t necessarily live in my house. Doesn’t that sound good to everyone in some ways?

WHEN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME IS CENTERED ON THE “EXPERT”

Anne: So because you were in administration, was it working for other people? I’m assuming most of the “co counselors” volunteering in this network were women co-counseling other women. Was he the only man?

Aliya: There were two or three other men. One who was pretty consistent, because he was doing all the IT stuff for free also. And there was one other guy that just came and went. But yes, 99% of the participants are women. He is a harem builder.

Anne: If you didn’t have him as your co-counselor and you had another woman. Was it working out for everybody else? Was this affordable relationship counseling near me benefitting others?

Aliya: I did co-counsel with a woman for a while, and yeah, I think some people were benefiting from it, but at the same time have to understand, these are just lay people. It’s not necessarily safe for people.

And so it’s a little iffy, And I think sometimes it just devolves.

Anne: From your experience, what warnings would you have for people when they’re looking for a resource?

Aliya: Pay attention to your gut, of course. There were moments along the way when I thought to myself, this is not gonna end well for me, because I noticed him treating other people poorly.

HE’S ROLE PLAYING

Aliya: I just blindly trusted this person. His written work was so impressive. It had helped me so much that I couldn’t believe he could be a perpetrator.

Anne: Yeah, I’ve recommended books in the past. Then we heard back from women who went to that author for services. It surprised me because their services didn’t seem in line with what was on the page. And of course, it is hard for me because this is what I do.

And I’m not perfect. So people could meet me and be like, oh my word, she was not as nice as I thought or something. Maybe ’cause I had a stomach ache. You never know. There’s that saying, “Never meet your heroes.” Because the written word is edited, it’s different than meeting someone in person.

I guess what I’m asking is in meeting him, was it a feeling like he didn’t understand his own stuff? Does that make sense? Did it feel like there was a disconnect that he was play acting what he knew was the right answer?

Aliya: That’s a good description actually: he’s role playing. So he can be very empathic and know all the right things to say. But there’s no depth to it. As long as it doesn’t require anything of him, he can be kind and supportive because he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. It’s only when there’s a conflict with him that his true colors come out.

MAKE SURE BOUNDARIES ARE CLEARLY DEFINED

Anne: Well, and if you’re in a commune, I’ll call it that. There’s gonna be some conflicts. If you don’t set it up as like, “Hey, I am a professional. You’ll be paying me for my services. This is how long our sessions will be.” That’s how it’s set up here at BTR. There’s no one with a dual relationship. Accredited coaching schools train our coaches. Plus divorce coaching certifications and all those certifications that our coaches have here. They are the best emotional support groups online.

There’s some clearly defined boundaries. So if someone’s setting it up as a friendship or a relationship of equals, that’s a different situation. That means he’s not in charge. It means he can’t call the shots because of the way it’s set up. Even though it’s affordable relationship counseling near me.

Aliya: Right, theoretically. Yes, we’re all supposed to be equals.

Anne: I think this is a lesson for women in terms of their spouses. Is that you can go to couple therapy with your spouse. You can get them all the right information. They can regurgitate the right information back to you, supposedly understand all of the principles of abuse. They could understand the principles of healthy living. But then not actually believe it or use it. I think that’s surprising to people.

AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: HE’S DOING IT ON PURPOSE

Anne: Like with my ex, he went to therapy for a long time. He could talk about addiction recovery, recite the 12 steps. He knew it very, very well. And really acted like he was in recovery. So the difference between knowing something and either believing it or using it or having it in Christian terms, sort of written upon your heart.

Sometimes Christians use that terminology. I think it’s surprising to people that somebody can live in those two worlds. Especially, like a lot of Christians come to BTR for help, knowing that their husband reads the Bible, goes to church or purports to be a Christian. He knows everything, but he doesn’t do it. It’s shocking.

Aliya: It is shocking to realize that he wrote that book, which is so well known and so helpful. I still say the book helped me tremendously, even though I now consider it more of an autobiography. Yeah, it’s a weird disconnect. That if you have a conflict with him, he starts demonstrating all the abusive tactics he wrote about.

And I even think it’s a little more sinister than that. I think he knows what he’s doing, and he’s doing it on purpose because he enjoys it. So he gets women to come to him, surround him, help him with his work, engage with him, display all their emotional wounds to him, and then it’s fun for him to do the big discard. Yeah, very hurtful.

WHEN THE “EXPERT” DOESN’T VALUE PEOPLE

Aliya: I talked to five or six other women who have worked with him and not been paid. Or maybe gone out with him a couple of times and had it end badly. He doesn’t value people. People are interchangeable to him. It could be me one day and somebody else the next day. That’s what I didn’t understand. How can you sit and open your heart to somebody, and really to them, you’re still a nobody? He could just replace you.

I noticed too late that in the process of co-counseling with him for two years, my mental health was declining. I was starting to feel more depressed. And I was wondering, is he gonna cancel this week or is he not? I was new in the area and he wouldn’t introduce me to anybody, because that was against his rules because he was absolutely adamant that we could not be friends. So I had to listen to him talk about his friends and activities around here, and though we have things in common, he would never introduce me to anybody.

So I felt dependent on him, and he knew it and encouraged it. I was trying to run it for him. Me and another woman were trying to run it. He just had other things he would prefer to do. But most people in the organization were there to see him, because he’s the famous author with a head full of knowledge. So it died down quite a bit. And then we had a big fracture, he and I did. Because I started to feel suicidal.

HE WASN’T THERE FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDED HIM

Aliya: He offered me a safe word to use in case I was really distraught. I could text him this word and he would know, and he would respond, and we could split some time together. Well, a few months went by and I used the word. He said he didn’t feel well and needed to cancel. That was for Friday. So I said, okay. He said, “We’ll do it Monday”. And I said, okay. Then on Saturday he changed the time for Monday. And then on Monday he told me he was feeling a lot better.

So he would get back to me after he went and hung out with his friends. And he would let me know if he was available. And at that point I said, “No, thank you. I’m good. I don’t need to talk to you.”

Anne: That’s very strange, that someone would not be like, okay, here’s the suicide hotline or something. Just putting you off rather than an actual suicide service.

Or even say to them, “You know what? Suicide is not my area of expertise. I’m worried about you. I hope you can find the resources you need.” Even a frank, “This is outside of my scope of knowledge.”

At BTR, because of confidentiality reasons, we don’t ever call any hotlines for anyone. But we would encourage someone to do it themselves. Like, you might be searching for affordable relationship counseling near me and need something outside of our scope. But to be like, I’m the end all, be all for everything. I’m so sorry, that’s wrong.








AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: I THINK IT WAS A SETUP

Aliya: I think it was a setup in a way. It was his idea to have a safe word, and then he didn’t honor it. That caused a rift in the organization, because I was front and center in the organization. I answered his emails, helped him with his classes, and started groups for him. The one woman on the committee with me said, “Oh my gosh, wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is awful. I can’t believe it. I’m so sorry.”

And the people started to think, well, where’s Aliya? What happened to her? Why isn’t she here? People wondered what happened. And I didn’t give a lot of details. I just said, “It’s not working for me. I’m moving on.” I thought it would be easy for him to generate a whole new group. And he has, they’ve started new classes. It sounds like they’ve had a retreat.

The other woman on the committee with me called me and said, “Where are you?” Why aren’t you here?” And I was crying. I told her. She says to me, “Listen, I can’t fault him for something I didn’t witness.” I just said, “Do you really think he would behave that way if there were a witness?” And yeah, she didn’t respond to that.

He’s so skilled at manipulating people. She’s a professional in some capacity who works with abused women too. It was horrifying. The betrayal in this affordable relationship counseling near me was amazing. So now she’s taken over most of my positions with him. The part that adds insult to injury is that he flipped the whole thing, blamed the whole thing on me.

IT’S NOT MY FAULT HE’S NOT TRUSTWORTHY

Aliya: I ended up feeling like it was my fault. Then I started to realize, wait a minute, this guy does not practice what he preaches at all. I just thought I could trust him. Like if you can trust anybody, it would be him, you know? And he knows that. Yeah, it’s not my fault that he is not trustworthy. He’s extremely good at his game. He’s so good.

Anne: I’ve had other women who have been abused by therapists come on to talk about it. And the patterns are they’re not paying them or they’re not requesting pay. The sessions go longer than they’re supposed to. Physical contact, contact outside the session. It’s become like your social network. It kind of has a feeling of a church. ‘Cause it’s not like you’re paying and you’re all working together instead of professional services in this type of affordable relationship counseling near me. So those are some of the red flags.

Aliya: Yeah, I agree. We did plenty of that, like emailing, texting, and things. So it wasn’t clean in any way. There were no well-defined parameters. I couldn’t tell, are we friends? Are we just working together? I’m working for him, but he is not paying me. We’re counseling together as peers, but I’m making myself vulnerable. He’s really not. That slowly dawned on me that he would stick to the same surfacey topics over and over again.

HE’S A BAD ACTOR

Aliya: Although he fancies himself an actor. If he wanted to cry, he got a photograph and sat down and looked at it and made himself cry. All just really weird stuff. Snuggling on the couch, even lying down on the couch a couple of times. Which was really strange for me, because I have a history of childhood sexual abuse, and it is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. But he takes it as, “Well, you know, it’s easier to cry it all out if you’re being held.”

Very confusing, yeah. Like I know one woman who worked with him collaborated with him. So she asked him out, and he flew into a rage over it. When things go south like they did with me, he’s gonna say one of two things, either. Well, she just couldn’t accept that I wouldn’t socialize with her. He said that about me.

Anne: This is someone who’s, sorry, I just have to interrupt and say, says someone who will snuggle with you on the couch.

Aliya: Right.

Yeah, and then the other thing that he always says is, “I’m a little concerned about her mental health.” So he said that about me too. He wasn’t really that concerned.

Anne: He caused your mental health issues.

Aliya: It was a huge betrayal. Like an arsonist, set a fire, and then run and hide in the bushes and sit and watch when the firetruck comes. ‘Cause he wrote the book, and then he gets everybody to trust him, and then he does what’s in the book.

AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: ABUSERS DO NOT LIKE STRUCTURE

Aliya: Imagine the power he gets out of that, it’s sick. I use the word evil because I didn’t think of another word. It’s really sinister.

Anne: The whole situation is sinister because of the lack of boundaries and the lack of structure. They do not like structure, because then they can’t do what they want, when they want it. So while it is affordable relationship counseling near me, there’s a huge emotional cost.

And they have a hard time with divorce decrees, for example. And they have a hard time with things like what does the Bible says about divorce. They want her to follow rules to the T but they don’t mind just doing whatever they want. So having the structure of his organization be so wishy-washy and structureless, he gets to do whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And if someone isn’t paying to have him be there at a certain time, he can cancel.

Aliya: Yeah, and he still thought I would do administrative tasks for him after all this happened.

Anne: I’m so sorry that this happened to you, and especially on top of your own story, which we haven’t talked about, that you went through abuse with your husband and then had this experience on top of it. When your husband is abusing you and you don’t recognize it, and finally you do, and you try to go for help. But it’s another thing when the people that are supposed to help you, it could be a therapist, clergy or abuse specialist, worsen things. You don’t know what is happening.

THIS BETRAYAL WAS WORSE THAN MY HUSBAND’S

Aliya: Yeah, they felt so different. Because with my ex-husband, as you said, I didn’t really notice or realize what was happening at first. And then when I did, I made a clean break from him. But this person was touting himself as a champion of women and a great support and totally understands what you’ve been through. And that betrayal felt worse to me, because he totally does understand. He’s written about what it does to women psychologically and emotionally, and how devastating it is. He knows full well what he is doing, and that to me is worse.

Anne: Well, thank you for coming to talk about your experience with affordable relationship counseling near me. This is really important. I do wanna stress that unsafe resources can come from women, they can come from men. They can come from anyone. In the court system, for example, we have victims who are dealing with super abusive guardian ad litems who are women and men.

That’s hard too, realizing that any resource could be unsafe. And then knowing what to look for so that you can find safe support. I think the other part is making sure that if you’re isolated and everyone who has been through abuse is isolated. That you are also creating friendships besides the professional support you’re relying on. So finding a quilting group, a church, or a hiking group, or some outside resource is really important as well. That can keep you grounded and help you heal. Cause I think abuse victims can heal in any way. And they find their voice after emotional abuse.

SAFE CONNECTIONS MATTER

Anne: But having a friend who cares about you, who you can talk to every day and go for a walk with and go to a movie, is really important. We should not underestimate real life connections with real people who are our friends and family over professional support, over affordable relationship counseling near me.

And that’s the hard part. So many people don’t understand abuse. There are so many victims who can’t think of anybody in real life that they trust. I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop.

If you have no one you can trust, coming to BTR. Going to our Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, going to betrayal trauma individual sessions is great. I think it’s very important that things are defined clearly. That’s something here at BTR we take very seriously. So our group sessions have a hour and a half time limit, and our individual sessions have a 50 minute time limit. Women pay for services. We are all paid. That’s one reason why BTR does not recommend other resources.

It’s not that an other resource couldn’t be amazing, it’s just that we don’t actually know what happens behind the scenes. And then also hopefully starting to make friends in your area somehow some way. I know that’s hard and overwhelming, but that’s gonna make a big difference. Being able to have people in real life who are your actual friends to support you. Did you find that after falling out with him, because a lot of your friends were part of the organization, that you were then isolated?

Aliya: Yep, definitely.

FINDING A SAFE AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME NETWORK

Aliya: I lost friends in the organization for sure. But I have also made some friends here, so I’ve got a little network. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes awhile, but I feel like I’m making friends. One of my friends back home called it way before it came to a head, and she said, listen, if you wanna hang in there with him, I still love you. I’m not judging you, but you just need to know it’s not gonna end well for you. And she was right, and she still loves me. She’s not judging me, she’s still my friend. So I actually appreciate honesty like that.

Anne: We stand with you, having been through it myself with my ex and other exploitative people who have exploited me, been dishonest in other areas of my life. It’s really shocking and hard to realize that there are people like this everywhere, and to know that manipulative people prey on vulnerable people. And so when you’re in this vulnerable state, which is natural for you to be in, learning some safety strategies to navigate that time is important.

HOW TO MAKE STRATEGIC DECISIONS

Aliya: That makes total sense. And most of the women that come to that network are just coming out of abusive relationships. So they’re vulnerable.

Anne: Yeah, the Living Free Workshop, that I wrote, has that built into it. How to determine who’s safe and who isn’t safe. When is affordable relationship counseling near me safe? How to make decisions, so that the decisions you’re making, as you recognize this is abuse, can be strategic as you move forward. So if you’re listening and you’re like, “oh man, I’m worried about that,” then check out the Living Free Workshop. Aliya, thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Aliya: Thank you.