Betrayal Trauma Recovery

If you’ve typed “I dislike my husband” into a search bar, you probably didn’t do it lightly. Dislike usually follows a buildup of emotional neglect, manipulation, broken promises, or repeated lies. Often, you still care about him and even love him. But something inside you feels shut down.

What makes it even more confusing is when he says he’s changing. Maybe he apologized, started therapy, joined a recovery group, or stopped yelling. This efforts probably seem sincere. And yet, you still feel irritated or sometimes even repelled.

Why Disliking Your Husband May Signal Something Deeper

If the fact that you dislike your husband keeps rattling around your head, most women end up asking painful questions like…

Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying?

Is this normal resentment?

Am I too unforgiving?

Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper?

In emotionally abusive relationships, temporary behavior shifts can look like progress. The apologies may increase. He may use therapy language or spiritual language. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of compliance.

It’s Okay to Dislike Him Even if He’s Getting Therapy

If you’re wondering if you dislike him because he’s emotionally abusive, that may be the case. And that’s a really good reason. To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse test.

Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean your nervous system no longer feels safe.

This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave.

Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm.

BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands

For women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband.

Transcript: I Dislike My Husband

Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone.

So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome.

Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.

Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time?

Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.

Early “Green Flags” That Later Made Me Question Everything

Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.

Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?

Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…

Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.

Cece: Right.

Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.

Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.

Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.

Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.

I Dislike My Husband, Does That Mean He’s Emotionally Abusive or That I’m Burnt Out?

Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”

I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”

And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”

“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.

Why It’s Okay To Dislike Your Husband

Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work.

CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.

And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins.

Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring

Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.

But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.

Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.

Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not?

Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.

When Things Changed After Our Wedding, I realized “I Dislike My Husband”

Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.

Anne: Not like, gently.

Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.

So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”

Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh.

Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents.

Anger Management Looked Like Change—But It Wasn’t Real Change

Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.

And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.

Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.

And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.

And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors.

Discovery Days, “Recovery Talk,” and Why I Dislike My Husband

Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material.

Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed.

And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.

But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.

Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?

I Dislike My Husband: Wondering What He’s Really Doing When I’m Not Around

Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on?

He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.

And in that moment, I remember thinking, Who did I even marry? Who is this man? I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around.

That’s when the thought began forming quietly in the background: I dislike my husband. Not because of one moment, but because of the growing confusion and secre

Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors.

CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.

Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.

Cece: Yeah, that’s true.

I Dislike My Husband: Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hope

Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself?

Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.

There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.

But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.

Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change

Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.

Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.

Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.

That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.

I Dislike My Husband: Why Emotional Safety Must Come Before Deciding If He’ll Change

Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.

Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, I dislike my husband, and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought.

Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem.

Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?

Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”

https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE

Anne: Did she say, you are abused?

Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.

And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change.

More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning

Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.

There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.

I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course.




Anne: You were resisting.

Cece: Yeah.

Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.

Changing Churches & Hoping Things Will Improve

Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.

Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.

Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.

Waiting For Change When I Dislike My Husband

Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.

Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.

Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.

Cece: Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.

Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.

And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.

I Dislike My Husband: How Boundaries Protect Women and Children From Emotional Abuse

Cece: Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.

It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.

Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust.

Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life.

It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life.

I Dislike My Husband: Another D-Day and the Numbness That Followed

Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.

So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.

And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.

Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories

Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.

And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.

Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change.

Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change.

Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.

Cece: Right.

Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.

Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR

Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.

Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.

Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it.

This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.

Anne: This is an addiction therapist?

Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.

Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest.

Disclosure & Accountability

Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.

We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.

Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.

Cece: That’s possible.

Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?

CeCe: I don’t know.

Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change.

I Dislike My Husband: I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed Again

Anne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y

So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.

Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.

So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.

Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.

Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end.

Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s

Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.

Anne: It sounded as if he could change.

Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.

I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”

He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.

Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out

Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.

My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor.

When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”

Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t

Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change.

The Church’s Role Turns To Blame

Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.

And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”

I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.

It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.

Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma?

Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point.

Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The betrayal trauma support group near me was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety

Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?

I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”

I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.

And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Letting Go of Hoping He Would Change and Finding Safe Support When I DisLike My Husband

Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, I dislike my husband — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point.

I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.

But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.

I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.

My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him”

Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.

Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not.

Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.

Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.

Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.

I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.

Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke

Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”

I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.

That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary.

After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.

Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles

Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.

And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.

And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.

So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.

Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation

Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.

Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change.

Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”

It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”

My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.

Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation

Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.

Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in my workshop.

Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.

I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since infidelity is abusive. He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”

I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, I dislike my husband, wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices.

Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries When I Dislike My Husband

Cece: We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.

But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband.

I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.

Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will.

Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse

Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.

Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.

Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change.

CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.

Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.

Cece: Thank you so much.

If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes.

HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE

1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE

Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you.

 It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming.

Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating.

2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES

You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.”

Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits.

3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP

 If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed.

If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior.

4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING

 You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all.

Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird.

5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

 If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself.

But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing.

If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our free emotional abuse test to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse.

Key takeaways from the interview:

Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits

When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse

How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse

Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES

Anne: I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna.

Welcome. Cynthia.

Cynthia: Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here.

Anne: So Cynthia, let’s start with your story.

Cynthia: In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits.

We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one.

Anne: They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING

Cynthia: absolutely.

On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done?

Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month.

He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him.

I was on antidepressants.

We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?”

And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment.

HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN

Anne: So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.”

This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying.

Cynthia: In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that.

And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks.

Anne: That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks.

It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS

Anne: The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Anne: That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Anne: Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable.

I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “no, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. And so I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him?

Cynthia: Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst.

HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING

Cynthia: The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted.

Anne: I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends.

Cynthia: I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well.

Anne: Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography.

But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explain why he was okay on vacations with other people. Because when you’re on vacation with more people, you could be talking to your mom or friends, and he could say something like, “Oh, hey, I’m just gonna run over here to the store real quick.”

And you wouldn’t say, oh, I’ll go with you. You’d be like, oh, cool. I’ll talk to my mom. When other people are around, he can sneak away, use porn. It’s just way harder to do what he wants to do when you are the only person around.

Cynthia: And I also noticed a shift in his behavior in the evening, so we would very rarely go to bed together. His excuse was that he wasn’t tired. I think he was using in those times, as well.

THEY DON’T VIEW WOMEN AS PEOPLE

Anne: There’s a huge connection between pornography use and men with covert narcissist traits. Women might think their husband’s don’t use pornography, that he is cleanbrowsing. I’m like, wait, tell me all the clues. And they’ll tell me and I’ll be like, that clue points to pornography. That one points to pornography. So, the likelihood is so high. It also means that they don’t view women as people.

Cynthia: Oh yeah, absolutely.

I remember I had a lot on with work, coming home every night and it was like I was going into this roundabout like round and round and round talking about nothing and never resolving anything. He was traveling a lot. And during that period where he was traveling, I had a bit of mental space. That’s when I discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

I wrote this into Google, “When your husband blames you for being upset about his behavior.” And your website came up, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And I was like, “Wow. I’m being gaslighted.” And that was like my D-Day. That’s when I first started to discover that I was in an abusive relationship.

I just started to feel. I’m not alone. It’s not me. I saw the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I immediately signed up for it and I did the whole thing, in one night. It’s really easy to follow.

COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: HOW LABELING HIM ISN’T HELPFUL

Cynthia: I was so grateful for the website. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. I was listening to those every day and then I signed up for the BTR group coaching. If I hadn’t discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know what I would’ve done because no psychologist was able to help me.

BTR Group sessions were better therapy for me than a therapist, because I felt understood.

I have not met any therapist that can explain things in the way that you’re able to, Anne. I really appreciate that because I feel like some of these tags, are being overly used these days.

Anne: Those labels tend to explain why he does it rather than focusing on just the plain old fact that he does it. It doesn’t matter why he is abusive, he’s abusive.

I don’t really care why he’s lying. He’s lying. I like focusing on what is happening rather than why it’s happening.

Because the focus on why tends to end up accidentally taking women into, well then if I understand the why, like he’s a narcissist or he has childhood trauma or something, then you keep your focus on him. like, how can I help him? Or how can I solve this? Even how do I explain it to other people? Which still keeps you in that vortex.

Cynthia: Yeah. My psychologist didn’t really understand what was happening.

SUPPORT OF THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP SESSIONS

Cynthia: I remember hearing, one of the podcasts when you interviewed another lady and she was saying about going in this roundabout. You get into a discussion and you can’t get off the roundabout. And it got to the stage where every time I came home from work, it was like I was being sucked into the black hole again. Discussing something and never resolving it.

The support of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions made me realize that this is someone who doesn’t care about me or my feelings. And I also had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery one-on-one coaching session with one of the BTR coaches to decide, should I really just separate from this man? I’m living a normal life now, and able to go out and socialize. I’m promoting this to every woman that is in an abusive cycle.

Anne: Thank you. You and women like you are exactly why I do this, because we’re the same. I went through the same thing. I know the confusion. And it’s just awful when you go to therapy and you can’t get help or when you’re going to clergy and they’re giving you the wrong information. It’s so hard to navigate. So thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing this. ‘Cause, if more women knew about it, I think we could really save women from years of pain in dealing with their husband’s covert narcissist traits.

Cynthia: I would not have been able to recover without all of the material that you have. Especially, during the divorce process. It really helped me because I decided to use the best solicitor I could find that could manage the transaction with him. Removing myself from having any interaction with him, really helped.

HE’S USING HER INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM AGAINST HER

Cynthia: So I can live my happy life now.

Anne: That is my life mission. It’s what I focus on every day, all day long.

Cynthia: I have a really good friend her daughter is in an abusive relationship cycle, and she’s bought the BTR Workshop. But the problem we have is we can’t get her to Betrayal Trauma Recovery . Because she thinks that maybe we’re pushing her for the divorce and we’re not doing that.

And what I say to my friend is, ” Well, the great thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is they don’t promote divorce, actually. Your daughter can keep herself safe and protect the children.

So anyway, I bought her the Workbook. She’s gonna be fine when she sees the truth, but she doesn’t want to educate herself on what to do.

Anne: I wouldn’t even say she doesn’t want to, she’s naturally being very confused. That is going to feel bad. I’ve talked to so many women who say something like, I’ve been praying and praying and praying about it, and it just can’t be that because it doesn’t feel right.

I get that because we need to get back in touch with our intuition. Your intuition is warning you, something’s wrong. You can feel that and they’re interpreting it through, “Well, it’s wrong. And so i’m gonna keep trying to talk to him, I’m gonna keep trying to work this out.”

So he’s using her internal, warning system against her. Of course it’s going to feel bad. It’s abuse and even when you’re doing the right thing, it’s still going to feel bad.

IT’S ONLY GOING TO WORK WHEN SHE’S READY

Cynthia: I have this other friend who’s been in this cycle for six years. I keep sending her your podcast. It’s too scary for her. There must be thousands and thousands of women like this, feeling in this fog, and they just can’t get out. So when she’s ringing up her mum to say, “Hey, Chuck just did this, he just screamed at me or punched the wall.” What can the mum say to help her? Is there anything apart from just listening?

Anne: Listening’s good to help women deal with the confusion around their husband’s covert narcissist traits. I found that women I meet in my congregation, for example, I’ll be like, I know what to do here. And I take it over to them. They don’t tend to watch it. Because they’re like, I don’t need this. I’ve got my therapist kind of a thing. And that’s really sad. ’cause then I see them in that same cycle for years and years and years. And I keep asking, have you watched it? And they’re like, no, I don’t have time.

So it’s women like you who are like, I’m gonna enroll in this. Who actually see the value in it.

Cynthia: The sad thing about that though is the BTR Workshop, it doesn’t just make you feel seen. It also can help you prevent being with an unhealthy person in the future. Whether that be a friend, whether it be, unhealthy family members. Once you start to know the signs, there’s so many self reflective exercises. It’s very empowering, for women to go through that. Especially when they’re in a time of need. I agree with you. That’s why I said to my friend, “It’s only gonna work when she’s ready.”

IF THEIR HUSBAND HAS BEEN MANIPULATING THEM WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

Anne: The other problem is that if their husband has been manipulating them and using covert narcissist traits. And they’re going to a therapist. They’ve gone to multiple therapists, they’ve gone to multiple clergy and they’ve tried all these things. Everyone is like, “This is what to do.” And it never works.

Then why in the world would this random lady be the answer? She’s just like everyone else. What else is she gonna tell me? It’s really hard to be like, I promise the BTR Workshop is nothing like anything you’ve seen before.

Cynthia: Absolutely.

Anne: Not what any therapist is gonna tell you. Because they haven’t experienced it, they can’t really understand what I’m talking about. I had to set it up step by step to really understand it. Because there’s no way to just explain it. It goes into extreme depth, but it’s very clear. If I try to explain it without the videos, which I did for years. It just got all muddled up.

Cynthia: No, you need the videos.

Anne: Because the visual, seeing it is what helps it click for women.

Cynthia: I was wondering, as we’re talking now for all these women that are going to these therapists. How about if they were educated on this? Because it feels like that’s really the only avenue to reach those women watching the workshop videos.

I STARTED FEELING BETTER AS I DID THE BTR WORKSHOP

Anne: I’ve had people do it, then they go to therapy. Or do other things like art therapy. And do that for years. And then they’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait. There was that Workshop. I gotta do that again. They do it again. And they’re like, Ahhh!

Cynthia: What I loved about the whole thing, is I needed help immediately when I had my D-Day discovery, where I was like, wow, I’m being gaslit. So I have this recording now. I wanted to know what I could do, and the BTR Workshop enabled me to just do that.

And I think I started, eight in the evening and I couldn’t stop. I was starting to feel better as I was working through it. Like, wow, I’m starting to see the light and I feel good.

I’ve had very expensive therapists. I’m talking thousands for just a weekend retreat. And the Workshop helped me tenfold. Because I was able to have the tools to take care of me.

Anne: I appreciate you and any of the other listeners out there who are getting the word out about BTR, to everybody that you can, because I kind of get lumped in the same category as maybe like a covert narcissist traits influencer or something. Rather than realizing the services that we have here and the information in the workshop is very solid.

Cynthia: Oh yeah.

Anne: Rather than just “selling some online course.”

IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY

Cynthia: Yeah, it’s been very well thought out, and it takes you on a journey of discovery about your husband’s or your partner’s true character. And then it gives you specific tools, to protect yourself from covert narcissist traits so you’re in a safe place. It’s for women that are in a relationship that don’t want to leave the relationship to protect themselves at home, maybe in home separation. It’s for women that want to educate themselves, that want to understand why they’ve been feeling like they’ve been living in this fog.

When I’ve been joining the group sessions, there’s been women of all different stages of the recovery. There’s people like me that were in the initial discovery. For me, the workshop is the beginning of the recovery journey, and you really have to start there to know that you are not the problem. I mean, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve done. It’s better than anything. It’s helped me the most in my life.

Anne: Thank you. It’s such an honor to hear your story and it feels really good that it’s helping people. Especially because sometimes I feel like I have this amazing information and there’s also no risk.

There’s a lot of risk to therapy. It’s expensive and it’s a lot of time. And I don’t think people realize how risky it is. Whereas our BTR Workshop is zero risk. It’s not too expensive, and it doesn’t take a ton of time. And listening to the Betrayal Trauma Podcast is also zero risk. There’s just this one little tiny risk, and that is that your whole life might change.

Cynthia: Yeah.




COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS CAN BE EXHAUSTING AND CONFUSING

Anne: I guess that is the risk. And that seems too risky, maybe for some people. Anyway, thank you Cynthia. I so appreciate your help, and spreading the word and sharing your story today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Cynthia: Thank you. It’s been wonderful to be here. And please, uh, continue doing all the great work you’re doing.

Anne: I’m so grateful to Cynthia for sharing her story. Her experience shows how exhausting and confusing these covert narcissist traits can be when you’re in the thick of it. So next we’re gonna shift gears a little bit.

One question I hear often from women who are doing the work of healing is, “How do you start trusting yourself again and how do you make sure you don’t miss those subtle red flags of this covert narcissism if you ever start dating again?”

Two other members of our community, Maisie and Lorna talk about what these patterns look like if you’ve left a narcissistic abuser.

But before we hear their stories, I’m gonna share a little bit about my own dating history.

Anne: I didn’t get married until I was 30 and I dated so much before I met my ex-husband. At that time, I thought I had a really strong self worth. When I met him, was like, this is the man I’ve been waiting for. I have no regrets.

EXPERIENCE WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS WHILE DATING

Anne: I’m so grateful that I married my ex because I wouldn’t have my kids or the life that I have now without his amazing contributions that he’s made to my knowledge about emotional and psychological abuse and narcissists. Um, I’m not gonna diagnose my ex as a narcissist per se, but when you read the definition of narcissist, he definitely has those characteristics.

So I don’t really want to go back in time to avoid marrying him. But I didn’t do some things that I would do now if I were dating.

My main problem was I laid it out on the table. This is exactly what I want. I would talk a lot. And my talking was the perfect setup because all they had to do was agree with me and nod their heads. And I thought I’d met the man of my dreams. If I date now, I don’t say very much, and I ask them questions and then observe , because I don’t want to put all my cards on the table and say, I love Star Wars. Me too. I love Indiana Jones. Me too. Rather I say, what kind of movies do you like?

When you’re having a conversation with them, do they ask you questions about yourself and your life or do they monologue and then they let you monologue. So you feel like they’re a really good listener because you talk and talk and talk and they listen. Try pulling back on your conversation and just see if he listens, when you just say one thing. Okay. I want to do this and then pause. And see how he responds when you give very short answers without a lot of context or without a lot of explanation.

MAISIE TELLS HER STORY

Anne: Maisie, can you tell us just a tiny bit of your story about dealing with covert narcissist traits in relationships?

Maisie: I was married for 10 years. Even before I was actually married, I had maybe three bad relationships, one which was violent. The guys I have tended to get in relationships with have been just emotionally unavailable or not being able to show affection.

Women can get confused. And I think that’s probably why I was confused before I really researched it to try and help myself is. People think abuse is just violence or really severe mental abuse. Is infidelity abuse? Actually like a lot of intricate parts of a relationship, someone cheating on you or someone being emotionally unavailable and withholding affection and you know you come home and they just don’t want to be around you or don’t want to talk to you and that kind of thing is abusive. So I didn’t really know that I had low self esteem.

I knew there was something not right. Cause you ask yourself, why does this keep happening to me? I have two children now, two daughters. That’s with my husband, who I was with. And when we split up and I ended that relationship, I was really at rock bottom. That’s probably the lowest point I’ve ever been.

That was only three years ago. We separated. And I think the whole year I must have read about a hundred self help books. I mean I just read night and day. Every spare minute I had, I read. I didn’t really go out much or socialize. I thought I have to help myself because there’s something wrong here.

IT ISN’T UNTIL YOU HIT ROCK BOTTOM THAT YOU DO SOMETHING

Maisie: Because of all these continuous cycles I was putting myself in. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of women. You go along, you think you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it isn’t until you hit rock bottom that you’ll actually do something about it. Doing everything I could to help me, and I remember at the time thinking, I wish there was somewhere I could go, something affordable. I was on my own with my two children, just ended the marriage, so finances and everything was changing for me.

Obviously, at the same time, I was also working as a domestic abuse advocate, so I’m working with high risk victims at work, and I’m going through my own thing as well. It just made me completely reflect on everything, with everything that I’d researched and, you know, learned for myself, trying to pull myself out of this hole.

Anne: When you set out to discover what your “problem” was, you discovered that you do not have a problem.

Maisie: That’s right. Yeah.

TRUSTING YOURSELF AGAIN AFTER EXPERIENCING COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS

Anne: . Lorna , can you speak to that for a little bit?

Lorna: Yeah, when you’re in a relationship like that, all you do is overcompensate, you’re always thinking it’s your fault, you should be doing more, you should be a better person. It’s almost like your whole life revolves around trying to please this person.

When you get to that rock bottom place, I’ve been in exactly the same place, where I want to just be out of this universe. I felt like I cannot deal with this pain anymore. My ex partner, who I have children with, he was exactly the same. We have a very similar story with that.

I just couldn’t believe that I had children with a person who treated me so badly. Thinking, okay, well, he’s doing this because of who I am. It’s not because of who he is. It was exhausting. I would do everything I could to try and please this person. It never happened, until one day I just thought, I cannot do this anymore.

Or I thought it was going to kill me, I did. Now looking back, I think there must have been some kind of inner strength within you to do that. All I could do was really reflect on and think to myself, I cannot allow this to happen to me again. I only live once. I need to have the best quality of life for me and my children. And I will never allow that to happen again. And I can’t control what he done. I can’t control about what half the men do out there. But I can control how I act on it, and I can control my happiness. And I am on my own now.

HE SAYS HE’S GOING TO CHANGE

Lorna: And all I think about is my own happiness and my children’s happiness.

Maisie: When you’re in a good place and you’re going into a relationship.

It’s a win win situation. A few years ago, I don’t know what I was willing to tolerate. I would just see, oh, this guy’s gorgeous, oh, he’s got a good job, he’s so nice, he’s treating me so amazing. And then I could find out, oh, well, he may be cheating on me. Oh, okay, well, I’ll just give him another chance. I’ll just give him one more chance. He’s saying he’s going to change. So I’ll just give him one more chance. So that’s why Know your worth and know your boundaries.

Anne: When women really know their worth. Many abusers accuse them of being selfish, or prideful or not respecting men. What are your thoughts about dating after recovering from being abused by someone with covert narcissist traits?

Lorna: It’s a peaceful silence within you. All your power and all the light comes from within. A lot of the times, the narcissist is the light and life of the party. I think a lot of people that you do see as really outgoing, they’ve got lots of issues right underneath. And no matter what kind of personality you have, if you stick to your beliefs and your values, you live by what you believe, because you’re not going against anything just to please other people.

Maisie: It can be misconstrued even by women that they think, yeah, you’re manipulating a situation. This is treating men badly. No, it’s not. It’s all about you knowing what you’re worth, having the ability to be able to make choices and be confident about them.

GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT

Maisie: I mean, I never used to be able to make a decision. I used to have to run to my mum forever. Mum, I don’t know what to do. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? And now I’m like, it’s my decision. Women have got a lot to give.

Anne: Yeah, after covert narcissist traits abuse, you might have that value conflict of being confident in what you want, but then also giving people the benefit of the doubt or wanting people to like you. And that’s totally understandable. something I always say to my kids and something that I apply in dating. Don’t put your best foot forward because you don’t want them to fall in love with your foot. You want them to fall in love with you.

Well, I appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for sharing just a tiny bit of your story.

Maisie: Well, thank you for having us.

Lorna: Thank you so much. It’s been lovely.

Anne: And to our listeners, think about what you think women should look for after narcissistic abuse. If you relate, comment below.

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If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone.

Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached?

Why women need thiese bible references

In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name.

Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty.

The Marriage Bible Reference For Women in a Confusing Marriage

A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax.

In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found.

Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy.

Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal.

Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as:

His need

Her obligation

A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity

For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden:
“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test.

The Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored.

Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm.

1. “Deliver Us From Evil” — Matthew 6:13

Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.”
Deliver.

The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it.

To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study.

2. “Guard Your Heart” — Proverbs 4:23

“Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.”

If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally.

3. “Resist the Devil” — James 4:7

“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation.

4. “Put On The Armor of God” — Ephesians 6:10–18

Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real.

The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself.

Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves.

5. “God Is Refuge” — Psalm 46:1

“God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.”

Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God.

6. “Hate What Is Evil” — Romans 12:9

“Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.”

Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself.

How The Wrong Interpretation of a Marriage Bible Reference Hurt Generations of Women

Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that…

“She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.”

“All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.”

“Her body is the solution to his sin problem.”

The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have

Lower marital satisfaction

Higher pain

Greater emotional disconnection

Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience:

Higher mutual satisfaction

Better intimacy

Greater physical responsiveness

The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage.

What This Means for Women With Children

If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you.

Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection.

Examples in real life might look like:

Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.”

Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.”

Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously.

Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance.

Reframing the “Marriage Bible Reference” Requirement

Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness.

If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home.

The Bible does speak about marriage.

But it also repeatedly commands believers to:

Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22)

Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13)

Seek wisdom (James 1:5)

Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4)

Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances.

Transcript: Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women.

Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say.

So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended.

After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place?

Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing

Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff.

But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people.

And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy.

Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did.

Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work.

Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women

Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one.

So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition.

Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car.

Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways.

Biblical Perspective On Intimacy

Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people.

So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse.

Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards.

Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom.

Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction

Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that.

When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right.

Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car.

It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur.

The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women

Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly.

Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing.

And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.”








That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state.

Personal Experiences & Struggles

Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will.

Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this?

How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted?

Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything.

Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy

Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home.

Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers.

Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman?

Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings.

Trying To Change People’s Minds

Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this?

I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked.

And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is.

Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense.

Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are.

Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws

Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women?

Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need.

And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no.

Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him.

Sheila: Yeah, exactly.

Anne: It’s like air and food.

Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe.

Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.”

Marriage Bible References Don’t Promote Marital Coercion

Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart.

Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No.

Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent.

John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about.

Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look

Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle?

Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone.

Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her.

This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross.

Treating Women Like Objects

Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either.

You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects.

So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people?

Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life.

Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity

Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight?

What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female.

So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say.

And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth?

Respecting Women As Whole People

Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything.

And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men.

Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat?

And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun.

Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse

Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach.

I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect.

Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust.

The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault.

Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone

Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs.

Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem.

And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone.

And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him.

Anne: Wow.

Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically.

A Disturbing Comparison

Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen.

But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone.

Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this.

We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used.

Processing Trauma From Bad Advice

Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years?

Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it.

And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women.

The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that.

Measuring The Harm Of Incorrect Interpretations of Marriage Bible References

Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it.

Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow.

So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved.

Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from.

The Problem With Frequency Over Quality

Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you.

Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone.

And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt?

Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world.

Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does?

Measure Of A Healthy Marriage

Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers.

So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3.

And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything.

Anne: Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat.

Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to.

Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message of Incorrect Interpretations of Scripture

Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message.

And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against.

We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it.

Anne: Yeah.

Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob?

Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob?

Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it.

The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy

Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks.

And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough.

And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it.

This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem.

Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection

Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do.

If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours.

Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it.

Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy.

Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night.

A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health

Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem.

So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all.

I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for.

Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally.

Women Tend To Outscore Men

Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men.

And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy.

And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you.

Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her.

Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is.

Changing Beliefs

Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through.

And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things.

Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out.

But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier.

The Importance of Setting Boundaries

Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately?

Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait.

I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries in marriage with their husband.

They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority.

Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem

Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing.

Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me.

Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting.

Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority

Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident.

Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern.

But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace?

And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way.

The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace

Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man.

Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband.

They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage.

I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you.

Pray For Deliverance

Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife.

Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through.

It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer.

Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good.

Encouragement For Women: Speak Up

Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong.

And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do.

It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend.

You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister.

Finding Emotional Health & Safety

Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people.

And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people.

Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that.

Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth.

Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.

Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg.

See If Your Husband is Taking Advantage of You: 3 Ways

1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING

Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed?

Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time.

2. He LIEs TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY

 If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online.

Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough.

3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION

 If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.

 If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

In this transcript you’ll find the following points:

Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust

If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence

Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage

The Impact on Children of His Exploitation

Transcript: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha.

Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me.

I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device.

That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries.

WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY

Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps?

Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t.

Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair.

Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed.

SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE

Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better.

He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps.

Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually.

Misha: It actually was.

Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist.

Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000.

Anne: Whoa.

FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION

Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us.

Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding.

Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time?

Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it.

I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER

Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information.

Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days.

Anne: Good for you.

Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer.

Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone?

Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM

Anne: Like thirst traps sort of-ish.

Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday.

I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.”

I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead.

HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING

Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Misha: He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning.

I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house.

HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER

Misha: It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him.

I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me.

So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.”

And I said, “It is him.”

Anne: He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING

Misha: Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed.

Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam.

Anne: Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it.

Misha: Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.”

Anne: Really.

Misha: I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?”

Anne: And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries.

Misha: Exactly.

Anne: It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position.

Misha: He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time.

THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM

Anne: Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow.

Misha: No, they said, “He is the victim.”

Anne: Wow! Okay.

Misha: He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage.

Anne: There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them.

Misha: We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites.

AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT

Anne: Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious.

Misha: They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it.

Anne: They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children?

Misha: They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me.

Anne: Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem.

Misha: Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call.

Anne: So then you’re not protected. That was scary too.

Misha: I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk.

Anne: What?

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND HE CLAIMS ADDICTION

Misha: I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him.

Anne: But that only benefits him and not you.

Misha: Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him.

Anne: Oh.

Misha: I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.”

And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?”

“I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Misha: I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat.

Anne: But we know that’s not true.

Misha: He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.”

Anne: Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography?

Misha: Yeah.

Anne: Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay.




HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE

Misha: Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.”

Anne: Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage.

Misha: Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?”

And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.”

Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once.

Anne: Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military.

Misha: Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care.

Anne: Did he react to you filing for divorce?

Misha: He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him.

Anne: He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy.

HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER

Misha: He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the trauma process.

He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care.

Anne: That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what?

Misha: Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children.

it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids.

He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. t was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas.

MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN

Misha: i He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen.

Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee.

Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children.

Anne: It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children.

Misha: Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.”

Anne: Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too.

Misha: And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.”

I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN

Misha: And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.”

Anne: Well, at the very least, not have custody.

Misha: Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing.

Anne: It doesn’t make a difference.

Misha: It doesn’t matter.

Anne: Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material.

Misha: Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer.

Anne: I have found the Living Free Workshop helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW

Anne: If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her?

Misha: When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. And she told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” The best way to leave a narcissist husband is right away.”

For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to.

Anne: Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap.

LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE

Anne: I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support.

Misha: I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things.

Anne: I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married?

Misha: Oh, that was my thing.

Anne: What do they think marriage is?

Misha: If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “Am I over my ex the best way to know?” Well, I can look back at all the facts.

Anne: Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye.

I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE

Anne: The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized.

Misha: Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children.

Anne: Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the Living Free strategies and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share.

Misha: Thank you for having me on.

When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about boundaries in marriage.

women need boundaries in marriage after broken trust

They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like:

How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful?

How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting?

Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me?

When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her Clarity After Betrayal Workshop.

“Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?”

Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG

SO, How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage When Every Time I Try Things Just Get Worse?!

Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement.

Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as:

If/Then Statements

Ultimatums

Statements of desires or values

Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation.

3 Steps to Establishing Effective Boundaries In Marriage

You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship?

Identify The Cause Of The Harm

The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm.

Ask yourself:

Do I feel emotionally safe in my home?

What specifically makes me feel unsafe?

When do I feel the least emotionally safe?

When do I feel the most emotionally safe?

If you want to go deeper, take my free emotional abuse test.

You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm.

Step 2: Separate Yourself From the Harm

After identifying the cause, ask yourself:

What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?

This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach.

Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions.

For some women, that action might look like:

Closing a door

Putting in headphones

Blocking a phone number

Limiting communication to email

For others, it may mean:

Physical separation

Filing for divorce

Reporting a crime

Creating distance to observe safely

The key question is not: Did I say the right words?

The key question is:
Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm?

Step 3: Measure Whether the Boundaries In Marriage Are Working

Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable.

Are you experiencing:

Less anxiety?

Less chaos?

More mental clarity?

Physical calm?

Emotional stability?

If the answer is yes, your boundary is working.

If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat.

Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior.

They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you.

Ask Yourself This Question:

After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm?

As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime.

Transcript: How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage? What You Need To Know

Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense.

They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him.

So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.”

And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.”

And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries.

Introducing StrategIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY

Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this.

And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Batrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on.

There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points.

Metaphor: Property Line & Trespassing

Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence.

So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage.

And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life.

So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm?

How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” Your abusive husband’s therapist may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him.








Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist.

Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him.

The Importance Of Emotional & Psychological Safety

Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety.

The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries in marriage? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t.

Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing.

But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.”

And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar.

How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Mental & Physical Actions for Safety

Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries in marriage. I detail a lot in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. It gives specific directions for “how do I set boundaries in marriage?”

But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more.

Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the workshop is for.

Understanding Different Levels Of Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, covers different levels of effective boundaries. It covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse.

So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation.

We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now.

And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do.

Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” I hate it when my husband lies to me about small things. Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs.

Boundaries In Marriage Help You To Be Safe

Anne: So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you.

Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety.

Metaphor: How Would You Keep Yourself Safe If Someone Had Ebola?

Anne: Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.”

In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get.

Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola.

The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.”

Continuing With Ebola Metaphor

Anne: The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious.

So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital.

All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care.

Creating A Protective Barrier That Actually Keeps You Safe

Anne: You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication.

So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter.

You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors.

Real-Life Example: When Carol Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse.

Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.”

She said, “You have to find an addiction recovery therapist, a certified CSAT who is male.” So her husband found himself a male therapist.” She also considered 12 step for wives of addicts. But things continued to be bad for Carol. The entire time this was happening, she was exposed to his emotional and psychological abuse. Even though she was resisting abuse and doing the best she could.

Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was so traumatized and exhausted.

She enrolled in the Workshop, and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned.

Real-Life Example: When Olivia Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do.

Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication.

And then worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing.

Real-Life Example: When Elise Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries.

With the help of one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions, she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house.

She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better.

Elise was able to stop long term affects from emotional abuse from her husband. And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.”

Let Me Know How You Have Set Boundaries In Marriage

Anne: We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries.

If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.