Betrayal Trauma Recovery

There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children.

If you’re going through this and need support, come to our online support group for betrayal trauma.

FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce. I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. In my case: My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities.

The system didn’t protect me. I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. What actually happened: When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is.

Doing more didn’t fix it. I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. But: None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later.

He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense.

Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything. The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. For me: I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy.

This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal.

And about a year later…everything changed.

LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION

Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to co parenting with a narcissistic parent. They want chaos and enjoy the fight.

To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries.

Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom.

It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger.

They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice.

When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy

If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress.

It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved.

Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement.

But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now.

I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids.

Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful.

If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you.

These are a few things that I wish I understood back then.

THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can.

Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting.

Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time.

Third, doing more doesn’t fix it.

I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped.

Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions.

He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility.

Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense.

Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything.

My turning point was not trying harder.

It was actually doing something completely different.

I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you.

‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father.

And that question led me to study the scriptures on betrayal and deliverance and to pray.

DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome.

These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives.

So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer.

And I was given full decision making power.

So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages.

Writing The Living Free Workshop

Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies?

They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Living Free Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop.

So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced.

As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out.

These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change.

For more information about my Living Free Workshop and these strategies, go to btr.org/living free.

LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING

Ok, let’s cue the recording.

Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ.

For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world.

Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares

Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t.

They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting healthy boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids.

But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments.

They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore?

And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries.

Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches.

Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win.

I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense.

We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. Healthy boundaries in marriage separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety.

Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children.

Scriptural Helps & Safety

Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields.

And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left.

Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance

Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace?

Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them.

Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you.

Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right.

Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule.

Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the Our Family Wizard app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me.

So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through Our Family Wizard. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes.

Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe

Anne: If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess.

I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God.

Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children.

So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice.

I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with.

Hope & Faith In God

Anne: One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that.

Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them.

Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children.

It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again.

When your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Pray For Deliverance

Anne: So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than prayer for your husband to change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out.

I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts don’t understand this. They think he’s just trying to be a good dad. But that’s not it, and therapists don’t understand he’s just using the children to hurt you.

That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow.

That deliverance would be a miracle. I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do and we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else.

Praying For Custody Case & My Situation Got Worse

Anne: I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now.

It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work.

It’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce.

She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together, and it’s co-parenting with a narcissist. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it.

I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. But it’s hard to be grateful when your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day.

Your Comments Help Others Find Us

Anne: By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy.

“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.”

“I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.”

I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth.

It’s Okay to be Angry When He’s Hurting You And Your Kids

Anne: The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this.

I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it’s not normal to not be angry in this situation. Being angry is a normal reaction when your ex is hurting your kids. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter.

The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet.

So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because he hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.

Permission Given To Be Angry & Bitter

Anne: Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to how abusers gaslight women into not taking steps to safety.

I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. It’s not like you just become bitter, go mad or grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety.

That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time.

And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it.

Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us to use when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

The Character Of Abusers

Anne: Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate can leave women wondering is my husband grooming me? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action when your ex is still hurting the kids?

I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It’s to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I’ve had many conversations about the term entitlement.

We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word.

Exploitative Privilege, When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You

Anne: I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that.

These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege and it’s abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable.

But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great.

This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege, it’s important to try to prevent exploitation. https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ That is always an abusive situation. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal.

Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal? When your ex hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.

My Current Reflections

Anne: So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. And use our anger to take action when your ex hurts the kids.








Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live.

That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain.

Miracles Come Through Hard Work

Anne: My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen?

And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner.

And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest.

No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know.

Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you.

It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it.

If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.

Are you looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online? Here’s what you need to know.

1. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE HAVE OTHER RESOURCES?

The best emotional abuse support groups online have educational resources like a podcast, workshops, or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what’s happening to you.

For example, did you know there are over 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse test to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types.

2. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE COVER ALL TYPES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE?

If the emotional abuse support groups online don’t understand betrayal trauma, which is trauma resulting from emotional abuse caused by infidelity and deceit, then the group may not meet your needs.

3. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE MEET MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY IN ALL TIME ZONES?

There’s no telling when your husband will be emotionally abusive. When something happens and you need support right away, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session for emotional abuse. Check out the Group Session schedule.

4. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE ACTUALLY HELP YOU GET TO EMOTIONAL SAFETY?

A lot of support groups blame you for what’s going on. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we never victim blame. Instead, we help victims figure out exactly what’s going on and what to do next through our Living Free Workshop.

Key takeaways from this interview:

The Long History of Women Being Left Without Support

How a Culture of Misogyny Undermines Legal Support for Women

How Institutional Betrayal Creates More Trauma

When Leaders Fail to Enact Policies that Support Women

Why So Many Women Don’t Know What to Search For

TRANSCRIPT: HERE’S WHAT MAKES THE BEST EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE

Anne: I have Elizabeth Estabrooks, MSW on today’s episode. She’s a writer, speaker, author with subject matter expertise on survivors of personal violence gained during her nearly 30 year career. She holds a bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science from Eastern Oregon University and a Master of Science and Social Work from Columbia University. From 2021 to 2022, she served on the VA National Domestic Violence Task Force.

The secretary’s task force on inclusion, diversity, equity and access. The VA Sexual Assault Prevention Committee and the National Gender Policy Council Work Group. Her book, Broken in the Stronger Places: From Resilience to Resourcefulness is a memoir that spends her life from joining the military through her exit from the VA and the one year solo healing road trip that followed. We are talking about the lack of emotional abuse support groups online or support in general.

Welcome, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here, Anne.

Anne: Were you in the military before you became a domestic violence expert?

Elizabeth: Yes, I was in the military. It was post Vietnam. They had done away with the draft. And there had been a lot of changes. Women have served since the American Revolution. But many people are unaware, for a long time only 2% of the military could be women, and they couldn’t be officers. There was a lot they couldn’t do. For black women, it was even worse. WASPs were the Women’s Air Service Pilots.

SERVICE WOMEN’S FIGHT FOR SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY

Anne: They are so inspiring, by the way. I encourage everyone to look them up.

Elizabeth: Oh, it was amazing. Mostly white, but there were some Japanese women and there was one, indigenous woman. I don’t think black women were allowed. Because there was so much discrimination.

Anne: Mm hmm, There were no emotional abuse support groups online.

Elizabeth: So these women entered and they received special training so it was a big deal. The WASPs, flew 60 million miles. They flew into danger, all that stuff. When the war ended, the military sent women home without so much as a benefit or anything. There were a number of women who died in service and their family members were responsible for paying the money to send them home from England or wherever they were.

The military considered women not real military members. That was the status of women. So in 1948, Truman signed the Women Armed Forces Integration Act, post World War II. It gave women full-time permanent status in the military.

The exception prior to that act was that a certain number of nurses could remain ’cause they needed medical. And so as time went on, it began increasing.

After the draft ended, volunteerism among men decreased, and they were having trouble staffing up the military. There were the WACs, Women’s Army Corps. The Navy informally called women WAVES. They had separate training. Their training included things like how to wear makeup.

WE HAVE TO DO BETTER FOR WOMEN

Elizabeth: Then they disbanded in 1977. Jimmy Carter, being a feminist, said, “We have to do better.” The military started to send women to co-ed basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. I was in the second wave of women to go through co-ed.

Anne: I feel honored to talk to you right now. This is a huge deal, and I am so proud of you. Helping women who had no emotional abuse support groups online or any other support.

Elizabeth: Thank you. So, I talk about this in my book. We’re all a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds. You start at the welcome center, and then you get on the bus, and they take you to the company where you do your basic training. There’s camaraderie, we’re all joking and laughing, and being a bunch of teenage boys and girls. And we got off the bus and hustled into a formation, which was ragged as hell. ‘Cause we didn’t know what it was.

The drill sergeants say to us, “This is your family now.” There were five male drill sergeants. “We help each other out.” They said, “Look to your front, look to your back, look to your left, look to your right. These are your brothers and sisters. They will always be there for you. They will always have your back.”

And in the next breath, literally they said, “And for you females out there understand that we think there is no place in this man’s army for girls. And we’re gonna spend the next eight weeks showing you just how much we mean that. If we have anything to do with it, not one of y’all will make it through.

EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ADDRESSING MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE

Elizabeth: Being in the field you’re in, you understand how that sets a culture. It set the tone to the men that had just been our buddies.

Suddenly, we were othered and heard mumbles of, “Yeah, you don’t belong here, and we don’t have to be nice to you.” The drill sergeants just gave permission.” When I wrote the book, it occurred to me that what they did was set the direction of our future. Sexual harassment, you’re going to experience it and we don’t give a damn. So just deal with it. We’re gonna encourage it so that you’ll leave. There were no resources, no emotional abuse support groups online.

Throughout basic training, there was a lot of real sexualized, misogynistic stuff that happened. From there, I went on to my training. I was in supply at Fort Lee, Virginia.

That was only moderately better. We had more freedom, so we weren’t just confined to being in formation all the time and being with our drill sergeants. We would be walking by, say, a billet full of men. And they would literally hang out the windows and yell obscenities at us.

If they were standing on the streets, they would grab their crotches, they would make all the obscene sounds and gestures that you can imagine.

THE LAW ALLOWED WOMEN TO SERVE, THE CULTURE TRIED TO PUSH THEM OUT

Elizabeth: That program at the time was a go at your own pace thing. It was a 12 week program, but you could get out anytime you finished. So I finished it six weeks, because I was like, I gotta get the hell outta here.

Anne: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Then I was stationed in Kissingen, Germany at Harvey Barracks. I was the first woman in my company, and one of only, maybe not even a hundred on the whole base. It was brutal. It was constant harassment, constantly grabbed, assaulted in various ways. I consider myself lucky. I was one of the few women never raped during her military service. This was ongoing. Every minute of every day I was in uniform on base.

Anne: I am so sorry. The overall feeling would have to be that my government doesn’t care about me as much as men.

Elizabeth: That’s the vibe. Yeah, we were only there because the law forced them to have us there.

Anne: That is so sad. It’s also so awful that the culture would permit people to treat other citizens like that, people who have signed up for service.

Elizabeth: At that time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg made it possible for pregnant women to remain in the military. Up until that time, if you got pregnant while in the military, legally they could throw you out. Even though you could have a baby while in the military, you couldn’t join the military if you had babies unless you gave up custody.

THE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF MILITARY POLICY

Anne: Wow, so no man has to give up custody to join the military, but women do.

Elizabeth: I said that exactly to the recruiter. And he said, “Oh, they’ve got wives and mothers. We don’t need to worry about them with their children.”

Anne: That’s crazy.

Elizabeth: He said that to me. He was such an asshole. So my friend couldn’t join, because she was like, “I’m not giving up my children to join the military. That’s never gonna happen.” We were gonna join the buddy system, so I signed my name on the dotted line. I had no idea, I was 18 years old.

Anne: I wanna just point out to you that you did the same thing that every other 18-year-old man would do. You’re not any different than any other person who’s joined the military.

Elizabeth: Thank you. That was my entrance into the military. I didn’t know they could discriminate. I didn’t know all that because I was a young feminist. So I understood discrimination, pay gap, and all of that stuff, even at that age. So I was shocked when I began understanding.

Anne: Institutional mIsogyny, with no emotional abuse support groups online.

Elizabeth: That’s exactly right. I stayed in, they tried to push me out, but I said, “No, I know my rights. I get to stay in the military as a pregnant and or single mother.” When you joined, and I think it’s the same way today, it was a six year enlistment. So it could be any combination of six. It could be a full six years active duty, it could be three years active, three years inactive, two years, whatever that combination was.

EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: I GOT A SHELTER FUNDED

Elizabeth: They had told me when I joined, okay, you’re active duty for three years, and then you have to join the reserves. Stay at the reserves for three years when you get out. They told me when I left, “You’re a hundred percent done. We don’t want you, you can’t ever rejoin.”

And today women can rejoin. Then a friend asked me to join the board of the local Domestic Violence Crisis Intervention Center. And that started my career in the field of domestic violence and sexual assaults. I eventually became the director, and there was a lot going on around that.

OJ Simpson had killed Denise Brown and Ron Goldman. When something national like that happens, it instills fear in every survivor and victim across the country. There are now emotional abuse support groups online at BTR.

No matter how long they’ve been separated from their abusive partner, we were dealing with that. I got a shelter funded, and eventually I got my bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science. I expanded my vision and my work.

So I did community safety. I did gender specific services, for most of my career. The government had a huge budgetary crisis. All my contracts were with government agencies. They all got canceled ’cause they were all about domestic violence, sexual assault, and gender specific sources. That was deemed unimportant, and that’s when I focused on women veterans.

So all the time before that, I had focused on communities, civilian women.

THE SECONDARY TRAUMA OF INSTITUTIONAL BETRAYAL

Elizabeth: Although looking back, I know that there were probably some women veterans I was helping, and I just didn’t realize, ’cause I didn’t talk about being a veteran. Women then didn’t talk about being a veteran, and many still don’t today.

Everything I did was on women veterans and sexual assault in the military. So when you’ve had experiences of harassment, assault, and or rape in the military that cause trauma. They call it military sexual trauma. And I didn’t learn until years later that I had that.

Anne: I’m so sorry for everything you’ve been through. And also so proud of you that you kept putting one foot in front of the other, you kept providing for yourself and your family. Um, with all your experience, can you talk about just some overall themes that you see in relation to domestic violence in general, perhaps specifically in the military, but perhaps more like culturally?

Because I think the military has its own culture, obviously, but it’s also sort of indicative of the overall culture. So maybe you could talk about how those all intersect. And how emotional abuse support groups online could help.

Elizabeth: That is so true, the difference is that when their partner assaults them, or someone in the military assaults them. They also face extreme institutional betrayal. We know that women are sexually harassed in their work places, and Anita Hill brought that to light. They don’t talk about it because of so much fear. Women in the military, even if they talk about it, it’s like tough We have to stay.

THE MINDSET OF A MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE

Elizabeth: I complained about it multiple times. They forced me to remain there to work and deal with this on my own. Nobody at my company cared except for my platoon sergeant, but he was never around. The leaders in my workspace didn’t care. They would laugh it off.

So there was no one, no one who cared. Women face that even in today’s military. And men are also sexually assaulted. But as you and I know, we will not stop assault against men until we do something about the misogynistic culture that drives and promotes sexual assault and harassment against women.

We know that when women are raped or sexually assaulted they’re called feminine pejoratives, bitch, pussy, slut. These are the terms used against men, because they don’t meet that toxic male culture standard.

Anne: It’s not their fault. In the minds of the abusers, if these men weren’t feminine, then they wouldn’t have been assaulted. Because that doesn’t happen to real men.

Elizabeth: That’s exactly right. When men in the military talk about being sexually assaulted, they refer to it as hazing. They lessen that, because they’re also called gay or homosexual as an insult. There’s a lot of fear for men.

Around that fear for women is that for years, women who were sexually assaulted received dishonorable discharges. They were charged with adultery. And that only ended a few years ago.

THEY GET A WHOLE HOSPITAL AND I GET A JANITOR’S CLOSET

Anne: Yeah, I can imagine the difference in your story if you showed up at basic training and they said, look to your right, look to your left. You’re all in the same family. We treat everyone with respect, end of story. What a difference that would make from the top. Everyone in our military is a human being who deserves respect. Everyone in our country is a human being. We are tasked with the safety of our country, which includes all citizens.

Elizabeth: Yes, we were less likely to get benefits to have our claims approved. The first time I was at the Boise VA, which is one of the best in the nation, it was all very male.

They said to me, “Come in for your first appointment, so we can get a baseline, third floor.” And I said, okay. So I go in and take the elevator up to the third floor. And the door opened. I look out and there’s mops, brooms, and buffers. It’s janitorial accoutrement. I was standing there holding the door open. I could see a woman down the hall at a desk. And by this time it’s making this obnoxious elevator, binging sound. She said, “Miss, can I help you?”

And I said, “Yeah, I think I have the wrong third floor.”

She said, “What are you looking for?”

And I said, “I’m looking for women’s help. They said, it’s on the third floor.”

And she said, “Yes, ma’am, that’s us.”

I just kept standing there and I said, “So just let me make sure I get this right. I served in the same military as the men and they get an entire freaking hospital and I get the janitor’s closet?”

She said, “Yes, ma’am. I’m very sorry.”

EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: CREATING POLICIES TO SUPPORT WOMEN

Elizabeth: We’re laying on a table with our legs in the stirrups. With nothing but a curtain separating us from the janitorial stuff going on in the hallway. And, now there are women’s health clinics in all VAs. It’s so much better. What I always say to women veterans is try it. If I had walked away from the VA that day, I would’ve missed some good care.

They passed this public law, which mandated the Center for Women Veterans be opened. And that they focus on policy and care just for women. There are 10 directives and two mandates in that law. And that’s what they’re supposed to follow, hard stop. I was recruited to join the Center for Women Veterans because of the work I had done.

So I moved to DC, joined the VA, and everything was going great. I had a wonderful director. We got things done. She had served under four presidents, and she was a phenomenal director and cared deeply about women veterans. And making sure that we were doing the right thing and doing many initiatives. It was fabulous.

We worked with all women veterans, not just women who were survivors and victims, right. But those cases generally came to my desk. When women complained or contacted VA, I handled them.

And then, things changed. People hired had no knowledge of the VA, of government, of budgeting, of any of that stuff. It became clear to me that my new director was uninterested in following the mandates and directives set under the public law that stood up the Center for Women Veterans.

WHEN LEADERS REFUSE TO ENFORCE LAWS THAT SUPPORT WOMEN

Elizabeth: A woman was sexually assaulted at a VA by her doctor, and all she wanted was the VA to stop him from working there.

At the time, my director said it is VA policy to maintain the employment of medical providers accused of sexual assault, as long as they still hold a medical license in that state. I lost my mind and said to my director, “This policy must be disbanded.”

And she said, “There’s nothing I can do about it.” This woman had no emotional abuse support groups online to access.

I said, “It’s literally your job to do something about this. The public law demands you do something about this. It’s your mandate.” And she refused.

Then there was a woman who, her story of all the thousands of stories I’ve heard, Anne, hers was the worst. It was more brutal than my mind could even comprehend. And I spent decades speaking to women and being empathetic, and I crumbled when it was done.

The VA then betrayed and abused her. The next day. I was getting ready for work and sitting on my bed and crying. I texted my boss and said, “I’m not working today.”

She said, “Are you okay?”

I said, “No, and I will never be okay again.”

My psychologist said, “The fact that you got your own sexual trauma and spent 30 years in this field is nothing short of phenomenal that you continue to do this work despite your own trauma. You can never again hear another story. You’re a hundred percent done with this field. It’s to your own mental health detriment if you continue.”

ACKNOWLEDGING RE-TRAUMATIZATION

Anne: Wow, that’s intense.

Elizabeth: Kintsugi, the art, where they repair fine porcelain with gold. In the early nineties, the field of mental health developed a theory around that.

What they say with Kintsugi is that it is stronger in its broken places because of the lacquer and the gold powder added. And so the field of mental health took that up and said, you too can be stronger in your broken places if you go through the CBT and the therapy and the da da da da da.

And during my work, I understood the falsity of that metaphor and why it doesn’t work. Because they don’t acknowledge retraumatization.

A lot of women who’ve read my book say, both veteran and non-veteran, it’s like you told my story. I feel so connected. One of the first women said, ” I had been in therapy, and something happened recently, and I came absolutely undone.”

We women blame ourselves for everything. I’m a loser. I can’t even do therapy right. I’m a bad mother, I’m a bad this, I suck at that. So we’re always happy to take that blame on ’cause that’s what the culture does for us. It’s on the woman. It’s always on the woman.

For the general population, understand that our words matter, that headlines matter. That when we say things like, “Why didn’t she just leave? Why did she stay?” We’re putting the onus on her. What we need to do is shift that, turn that around.

CHANGING THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Elizabeth: So the next time, say, “Why did he do that? Why was he allowed to get away with that?”

Because for decades, we aren’t any better in that field. We keep putting it on the women to escape, to change to dah, dah, dah, dah. We need to put it on the people doing the deed.

Healing is not an event, it’s a process. And trauma gets inside you and you can heal. You can do better, but be aware of something that most psychologists or therapists never talk about, and that is re-traumatization.

Something can happen. We saw that during the OJ Simpson trial. Women across the country were re-traumatized in mass numbers. You’re so confused when that happens, ’cause you’re thinking, I thought I was all better. Don’t beat yourself up, find some help, a group, emotional abuse support groups online. You deserve to be healed and happy.

Anne: Yes, those layers of trauma, not that the trauma isn’t compounding, but it’s easier for us to rebound, gain strength, if we have emotional safety in our own immediate vicinity with the people that care about us. Some have had intimate images shared without consent.

I’m so lucky with my children. I said to my son this morning, “I’m just so angry and I’m sorry if I’ve been very, short lately.”

And he said, “Oh Mom, you’re amazing. You have such good intentions. We love you. We understand why you would be upset, and it makes sense that you would be. You’re safe with us Mom.” And it just made me feel so good. Not everybody has that, so I wanna acknowledge that. Getting to emotional safety is what our Group Sessions are about.

WOMEN DESERVE THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS

Anne: You can start building that as you come out of the experiences you’ve had. I guess you’ve made some close friends who have been through similar things you can relate with that. You can call and be like, can you believe what happened? And you can process it together, and at least you have an immediate safe space. So that’s what women experiencing trauma need. They just need that safe space to process what’s happening with emotional abuse support groups online.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and having that shared experience, having a group or person with which you have that shared experience really is a positive in your life. Pursue that, because if you’re in a home where you’re not safe, where you don’t feel safe, where you’re afraid to say your words. I know how hard it is. If you’re not safe, you deserve to be and find that safety where you can.

Anne: Yeah, women deserve the pursuit of happiness just like anyone else.

Elizabeth: That’s right, perfect.

Anne: Yep, well thank you so much, Elizabeth, for sharing your story. Thank you for spending time with me today.

Elizabeth: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. It’s been a great conversation, Anne, and I appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thank you for giving survivors a space.

Anne: Thank you.

FINDING HELP BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED

Anne: I met my next guest, Lacey, at a conference. She told me how difficult it was to find emotional abuse support groups online and support before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. She didn’t know the term betrayal trauma at first. So she didn’t know what to search for, and that matters. When women don’t have the right words, they can’t get the right help. Welcome Lacey.

Lacey: Hello Anne, thanks for having me.

Anne: Can you start with how it felt to be searching for help when you didn’t know what you were looking for? All you knew was that your marriage was really confusing.

Lacey: Initially just friends and maybe counselors and books, I would read them and listen to it, and it didn’t resonate with me. So as I dug further, I started learning words like betrayal trauma. You know, I didn’t even know that’s what I had. So I didn’t know the words I needed to search for. I just started stumbling across things. I had to weed through a lot of things that were not helpful before I could get to the things that were.

Even with books they suggested, sometimes you’re just not in a place where you can sit down and read and comprehend a book. Betrayal Trauma Recovery for me was just something consistent, weekly that I could turn on and listen. What you said resonated with me. So I took your advice. It was good for me when I found BTR. It’s a consistent voice of reason that I could turn to. Listening doesn’t take nearly as much brain power as sitting down and studying or something like that.

PROMOTING BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY & HELPING OTHERS

Lacey: You talked about the conference. I wouldn’t have known anything about that if it hadn’t been for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast There are not many resources in my area. Even the counselor I’m seeing isn’t trained in this area. She doesn’t know about resources like books and things that you suggest on BTR. I just want to do my best to help other ladies find it quickly, more quickly than I did.

It’s great with the podcast, I can go back and re-listen. Before I got on with you, I was listening to a few things. You know, I probably will not have my own podcast or website or anything like that. It’s difficult for me to talk about these things with people in person. I want to do my best to promote you in the best way possible to help other people.

Anne: I’m grateful for your support. You’ve listened to the podcast since the beginning, and one of the things you mentioned is that you wanted other women to know about Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It covers things emotional abuse victims need to know. You talked about how easy it is to help women find us. Just follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts by actually clicking the follow button. The more subscribers or followers the podcast has, the more the algorithm shows this podcast to women when they’re searching for help.

Like you said, you were searching for things, but you didn’t know to type in betrayal trauma in to Google because you didn’t know what you were searching for, exactly.

Lacey: Right.

Anne: Then finally, when you found the word betrayal trauma, you found us, you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and our emotional support groups online.

IMPROVING ONLINE VISIBILITY

Anne: So as women search around, they search for words like infidelity, cheating, or addiction. Lots of women are searching for narcissism stuff, like covert narcissist traits, lying, “How do I help my marriage?” Or betrayal trauma in relationships.

It’s rare that a woman with marriage troubles goes immediately to Google and types in betrayal trauma and finds emotional abuse support groups online.. My goal is to help women get this information as soon as possible. Making sure they can find us online is important.

The first thing I ask people to do is actually click the follow button, and then to help even more rate the podcast on their podcasting service, or iTunes or Spotify. And that five stars means Google or iTunes starts paying attention to it. So podcasts with a lot of ratings get more visibility. And that’s what we need. There are examples of misogyny and how to figure out what is happening.

If someone types in infidelity, for example, it’s so much better to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery if you’re searching infidelity. Than finding that a wife causes infidelity, not meeting her husband’s needs. Or a wife not being safe enough for her husband, or something like that.

You’ll see things evolving over time with BTR as I learn better ways to describe things. As all of us know, it’s an ever evolving process to describe what we’re feeling and what is happening to us. And so I try to update the website over time and all the materials over time when I have a better way to describe something.

EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ENGAGING WITH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY ON SOCIAL MEDIA

Anne: Another way to help other women know about this amazing community is to comment on the btr.org website. Because the way search engines work, the more interaction a website gets, the higher ranks on a search engine. Same thing with Instagram and Facebook, the more comments on each post, the more interaction, the more people see it. That algorithm is like, Hey, this is interesting. And they show it to more people.

So if you’ve been grateful for this podcast and want to help get the word out. Going to our YouTube channel and commenting on all of our videos, commenting on our posts. We’re on Instagram at. At btr.org_. And on Facebook, commenting on our posts.

We have some wonderful supportive women who are part of the emotional abuse support groups online, take five minutes a day while waiting for carpool. And they go through all of our posts on our social media platforms on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And in the comments, they just do an emoji, like a handclap or a 100. Or the celebration emoji. It can just be an emoji. You don’t even have to say anything. That helps the algorithm so much. So if you’ve been putting emojis on our social media posts or writing short comments on our website, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. .

That’s the cool part about this podcast. It’s by trauma survivors for trauma survivors. So we can make it whatever we want.

https://youtube.com/shorts/QgWLaB34xIE

EXPERIENCING SUPPORT IN PERSON

Anne: So tell me about your experience being around so many women, like having come from an isolated state of not talking to anyone you felt understood by the emotional abuse support groups online by BTR.

Lacey: In my town, I didn’t find any groups that I felt comfortable going to. They didn’t focus on my specific need. I had such a hard time finding a counselor. And I felt like they listened, but maybe didn’t get it. I have friends and family that know that I’m separated. And they know that I’m hurting, but still, again, they don’t know the details or maybe how to listen with understanding.

Being around all these women, even if their situations weren’t the same, or if they hadn’t experienced the same thing, it just felt like they knew how to react appropriately and the right things to say. It felt so good to talk and not worry about filtering what I was saying or trying to remember what I had already told them, or is this person safe or not?

Or when am I going to run into them at the grocery store? You know, or do they know my husband? All these things that are constantly going through your mind when you’re at home and trying to know how to talk to people. None of that was there. And I was able to just talk and share my story, and not feel judged. Sometimes you just want to talk and have somebody listen, and it was a great experience.

Anne: Yes, it has always been my goal to create the best emotional abuse support group online. I have a podcast, a workshop or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what is happening to you.








EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: GRATITUDE AND COMMUNITY SUPPORT

Anne: We do have a free emotional abuse quiz. To get that abuse quiz, click on the link. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. I’ll talk about that in another episode. But you can also see what those are and take that quiz.

It’s really important to me to have a group at least once a day and multiple times a day. So that you can get support right away that actually helps you get to emotional safety. So many people don’t know what to tell you to do.

Lacey: I just want to throw out there that I’m sure donating helps continue how y’all are already working on spreading the word. I don’t know, I just want to throw that out there. Because I think everybody should donate, and uh, I want to help you any way I can.

Anne: We all built Betrayal Trauma Recovery. There’s no way I could have started it without the emotional or financial support of all the women listening, small and large. Betrayal Trauma Recovery support groups are full of amazing women. They are the best emotional abuse support groups online. And knowing that there was someone on the other side of the microphone listening to me, because when I would feel so dark and sad and just be speaking into a microphone in my basement.

And there’s no way I could have done it without you and without the coaches. So I’m very, very grateful that this is an organization by trauma survivors of trauma survivors. It’s a community that I’m part of, proud of, and grateful for.

If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. For a woman who has just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because it is. It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a two-part conversation with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation.

This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even if apparently all men do it.”

QUICK ANSWER: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING?

In marriage, yes. Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: He is engaging in sexual activities and directing sexual energy toward other people, often in secret, while expecting ongoing intimate access to his wife’s trust, body, and partnership.

And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know:

IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, HERE’S WHY

Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know.

1) CHEATING IS NOT LIMITED TO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON

If your husband is pursuing stimulation from searching for and viewing other women online, he’s still directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “that it doesn’t mean anything” because there’s no physical contact.

But your marriage is real and your natural reaction to his choice to pursue arousal with other women is healthy and real.

2) IT’S ALMOST ALWAYS BUILT ON SECRECY AND SECRECY IS BETRAYAL

I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative.

If your husband has a pattern of using hidden or secret apps, unusual password protected accounts, and deflection, anger, or mockery when confronted, that isn’t him just needing “privacy.” He’s engaging deception, which is an obvious marker when asking, “is watching inappropriate media cheating?”

3) IT UNDERMINES INFORMED CONSENT INSIDE YOUR MARRIAGE

Women generally consent to a marriage based on a certain set of sexual boundaries that they expect both partners share.
If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (and lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship.

She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation.

4) IT’S NOT “JUST CONTENT.” IT’S ACTUALLY EVIDENCE OF ABUSE

in my interview, Christen defines image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation.

And then she lists what falls under that umbrella:

sextortion

non-consensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”)

hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms)

“upskirting/downblousing”

AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos

harassment using sexual content

Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused.

When a husband says, “I would never do anything to hurt you,” he may believe that he’s not harming anyone because he’s just looking at “images.” But the inappropriate media industry involves the abuse and objectification of women, and by choosing to engage with it, he’s supporting it.

5) IT’S RELATIONAL INFIDELITY WHEN HE’S BONDING SEXUALLY WITH SOMEONE ELSE

Even if he has no emotional “relationship” with the person he’s aroused by on a screen, if his wife is left with distance, disconnection, and feeling like she’s competing with strangers, that’s infidelity.

6) IT OFTEN COMES WITH GASLIGHTING: “YOU’RE THE PROBLEM”

Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it.

So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled:

insecure

controlling

prudish

too sensitive

the reason he does it

That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

7) IT PUTS WIVES AT REAL RISK, SOMETIMES CRIMINAL RISK

In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is non-consensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends.

8) IT TEACHES MEN THAT THEY’RE ENTITLED TO SEX WITHOUT INTIMACY

Even if something is common or deemed acceptable by some people, that doesn’t make it healthy. Melea describes why industries like this resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When consumption of inappropriate media is easy, private, and constant, it creates a culture where:

women exist for sexualization

male arousal is a “need”

women’s bodies are commodities

Wives often experience the effects of this cultural acceptance as:

increased pressure to compete sexually

decreased empathy and emotional presence

an unwillingness to acknowledge and repair harm

And all of these erode the foundation of safety and intimacy that marriage is supposed to be built on.

9) IT IMPACTS KIDS, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY

Even the most tech savvy husband who thinks he’s keeping it “private,” can’t guarantee that curious kids, with devices on shared Wi-Fi, won’t be impacted his browsing history.

He’s not just risking damage to a marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of your children.

Melea Stevens, board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets.

WHAT TO KNOW WHEN SEARCHING “IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING”

Most women search because they feel betrayed, and they don’t realize it’s exploitation.

It’s not just cheating, he’s participating in the real exploitation of women and girls.

Thinking “it doesn’t hurt anyone” dismisses the real harm done to real people and relationships.

If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live with the consequences of that lie, yes, it’s cheating. And it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women.

TRANSCRIPT: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? HERE’S WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

Anne: I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation Law Center.

She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse.

Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation.

Welcome Christen.

Christen: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse?

FORMS OF IMAGE-BASED ABUSE

Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes.

So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all.

Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around?

Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat.

In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent. Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey.

NEWS HIGHLIGHTS

Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute.

Anne: Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there news stories that highlight this issue?

Christen: So there is one. It’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution.

The CEO and the COO of —-hub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms.

Anne: When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So husbands who are constantly on their phone looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use?

IMAGE-BASED ABUSE IS HAPPENING

Christen: So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites.

There’s a sense that exploitative materials use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone.

Christen: But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses inappropriate images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly inappropriate content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion.

Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information.

Anne: Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they were in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also what marital coercion is. They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community.

NON-CONSENSUAL RECORDINGS & HARASSMENT

Christen: Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything intimate.

They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw

Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share inappropriate images.

So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites.

THE ABUSIVE NATURE OF ONLINE EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL

Anne: I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is.

Christen: Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tag it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There will be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things.

Anne: What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior.








People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender.

Christen: Wow.

Anne: How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it?

IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, AND IT’S ACTUALLY SO MUCH MORE

Christen: It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone tags it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes CSAM Which is rife on the internet.

Anne: When you say CSAM. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language.

Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction.

It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitative, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content.

A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified

IMAGE BASED EXPLOITATION IS ABUSIVE

Anne: We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things.

Christen: Yes, or at least sued, in some cases.

Anne: With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you.

Christen: Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things.

Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls.

Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them?

IBSA IS POSTED ANYWHERE YOU CAN POST

Christen: They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts.

Anne: It’s alarming to think about.

Christen: It really is.

Anne: Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exploitative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful?

Christen: Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another.

And it can be physical, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be.

Anne: Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the same thing, but it’s in a different way. So they’re using coercive control to manipulate, lie, to gaslight to hide their use. So they’re lying to them about their whereabouts.

EXPLOITATIVE ONLINE IMAGES ARE ABUSIVE: LIES & HYPOCRISY

Anne: They’re lying about their use of time or why they’re angry about something. Or they’re trying to gaslight to make sure their wife doesn’t know the types of things they’re doing. Because they want their wife to live in a different reality. But he wants his wife to think he’s a good guy.

That he’s a churchgoer, that he’s an upstanding member of society. So it’s that same coercive control to maintain the narrative. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. You, wife, you’ve got some problems. And if you would cook better, or if you would be more respectful of me, or if you would appreciate my job more. Then maybe our marriage would be good.

That gaslighting happens all the time. And that is why I want to hit home to the addiction recovery community. Or other communities that these men are abusers. They’re not just users. They are abusive to their wives. And it’s important for people to understand. That we’re talking about a specific type of trauma to the women being filmed.

Anne: Why is it so important to recognize that this is trauma? And people actually document it and then post it?

Christen: Yes, I think it’s exactly what you just said. Their trauma is posted. If I were to sum it up, I would say probably for the three reasons that it’s a really prevalent form of trauma.

TRAUMA & ITS MANIFESTATIONS

Christen: Going back to the statistics from earlier, it’s extremely destructive. People usually commit it with impunity. Impunity just means you’re getting away with it. You’re getting away with the thing in a way that is so clear and obvious, you have no reason to stop doing it. Other people watching what’s happening don’t have a reason to not do the same thing themselves.

Anne: Oh, this is happening in people’s families too. It’s amazing, the parallels between the two, the impunity with the divorce, or they’re still getting child custody.

Christen: Some ways the trauma manifests for the people depicted include high levels of anxiety, PTSD, depression, shame and humiliation, loss of trust and agency.

The risk of suicide is very, very high. Some 51 percent of people responding to one survey said they had contemplated suicide due to their experience with image based abuse. It’s also important to note that this is a form of abuse that never ends. Someone else can always share or upload the images. It may never fully go away.

It’s an abusive situation, a person may never fully exit. Survivors shared with us that their reputations are completely lost. They’ve lost jobs or had to leave jobs because of the level of harassment directed at them. When people realized it was them in the videos. They’re constantly anxious in social situations, wondering if someone has seen the content.

They’ve had family and other relationships destroyed because of this, so it, it really manifests. Like other forms of trauma.

Anne: The federal government passed a law against revenge —ography.

FEDERAL LAW AGAINST REVENGE MATERIAL

Anne: Can you tell us about the law?

Christen: It provides victims with the right to sue for non-consensually distributed content. If the person who disclosed it knew or recklessly disregarded the depicted person’s lack of consent. So when it allows people to sue for damages, it allows them to potentially get a temporary restraining order. Or an injunction, basically ordering the perpetrator to stop displaying or disclosing the image.

There are some exceptions that I think are a bit concerning about who can bring an action under this law. So basically, there’s an exception called matters of public concern or interest. In my view, it is vague and appears to exclude any possible cause of action if something is deemed to fall within that category. And my perspective on that is famous or well known women shouldn’t be public property either.

It doesn’t address the rights of a person if someone is not well known. There was no public interest in appearing in content alongside someone who was. That’s one exception that raises a flag for me. And then there’s another exception related to commercial content.

Basically, it means content with people who appear under 30 if force does not produce it, fraud, misrepresentation, or coercion. They would accept that kind of content. In some ways, it means that the websites most likely to be exempt are ones most likely to have people under 30 exploiting younger people.

It also exempts the websites and people likely to profit from the display of the content. So if someone ran his own website with younger looking people. He couldn’t be sued by his wife or ex girlfriend for non-consensually posting her images on it. As long as she isn’t coerced to make the video.

IMAGE BASED EXPLOITATION USE IS ABUSIVE: THE ISSUE OF CONSENT

Christen: To me, these are exceptions that are worrisome, and ultimately I think make the law incomplete. But I think it can be useful for some victims to have legal recourse.

Anne: When you say consent, that word is just fraught in our community. Because women give their consent to marry, for example. They’re giving their consent to be in a relationship, but that doesn’t mean they give their consent to be abused. When you say, yeah, they consented to participate. But they’re not consenting to be manipulated or gaslit. This law is a he said, she said. Is the consent issue clear when it comes to this law? Or does it get caught in the same kind of rape/domestic violence problems? Where you can’t ever prove it.

Christen: It’s a good question. It’s hard to say right now, because no one has tried to use the law yet. I think a lot depends on how judges interpret it, and how it’s actually used. This type of law is not covered in the federal trafficking law, which covers it. The standard for whether something meets the definition of trafficking is whether it features a minor? Or was it produced through force, fraud, or coercion?

So in a sense, consent is arguably not a defense if people mean agreement. People can coerce you into agreeing to something. You can be deceived into agreeing to something. If either of those two things are present, the crime is still committed. So I think it remains to be seen if this specific law will take a similar view.

LEGAL RECOURSE & COERCION

Christen: It seems to anticipate that people may produce content through coercion and deception. That’s included in the law. It wouldn’t necessarily let you sue a commercial website, but it would let you sue the person who posted it. So they seem to anticipate coercion as possible in this context, but I think a lot will depend on how things end up being interpreted.

Anne: We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this. I know some of you listening are victims of this. Like your own husband has posted things of you, or you’re a victim of revenge ___ography. You’re a victim of abuse in this way. Many of you, I personally talked to you, and you have been afraid to press charges. Number one, because you’re not sure if you want a divorce, you’re not sure if things will work out with your husband.

I want to encourage you to do something. The best hope for your husband not to be abusive is to actually account for his crime. Even if you think there’s some chance it will work out. I still think if he were truly changed, truly repentant, truly non abusive, he would take accountability for what he’s done.

And so reporting it is an important step. So I know that reporting domestic violence, especially if it is your husband or your boyfriend, is important. It’s a safety issue, so I want to acknowledge that.

RESOURCES FOR VICTIMS

Anne: At the same time, there are resources available.

Christen: Yes, one of the main resources we recommend is the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. It’s specifically helpful for victims in the United States. They have a crisis helpline, and the number is (844) 878-2274, and you can talk to a counselor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They also have an online removal guide. Which walks people through instructions for how to address content they found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, Google, Snapchat, and other sites.

And then they also have some international resources for people in Australia, Brazil, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. Our main recommendation is definitely to contact them. Listeners are also welcome to contact the NCOSE Law Center. We do have a number of lawsuits addressing image-based abuse. Although at the moment, almost all concern child abuse victims. Adults who were minors when their content was posted.

We have lawsuits against big suppliers

Anne: Many of our listeners actually might be victims and might not know it at all. We are here for you. NCOSE is here for you. And the resources she just talked about are here for you.

If you’re a concerned woman and you want to advocate to make this world safer. You need to check out NCOSE at endsexualexploitation.org.

ADVOCACY & PUBLIC AWARENESS

Christen: Speaking broadly, there is a market for this kind of content on —-hub and all these other sites. Demand drives markets. So the first thing a regular person can do, especially men and boys, is not consume the abuse. This is a profitable industry. It is driven by the fact that people want to see this stuff.

I would also say if you’re in one of the two states that currently don’t have a law against this type of content. Definitely advocate with your local leaders for such a law. I think there’s a need to educate boys and men and the public about this issue in a way that puts the responsibility for it where it belongs.

I think that in many ways, as a society, the way we talk about assault has changed for the better. We’re not just telling women to watch out or blame them for not fighting back. You know, we recognize that it’s on men not to perpetrate, and I think the same applies with this issue.

We can’t just tell women and girls to watch out or be more careful. We need to teach men and boys not to perpetrate. Part of the importance of this abuse framing is doing that. It’s calling this thing by its right name, calling it by the term that shows how seriously wrong it is. And how seriously abusive to human rights.

THE IMPORTANCE OF SAFE HOMES

Christen: And I think that’s a big part of what any person can do with any type of gendered violence or abuse. To call the thing by its right name. I think so often men’s violence against women, abuse of women and girls, is disappeared by how we talk about it. Or the fact that we don’t talk about it. So I think that’s a big thing that any person can do.

Anne: I’m reminded of the Jackson Katz quote. “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not how many men raped women.” For our listeners, since they’re not men and boys, the number one thing you can do is get to safety in your own home. The number one thing you can do is learn how to get to safety yourself, and how to ensure your own home is safe. That’s number one.

When your own home is safe, the number two thing you can do if you want to get involved is check out the NCOSE Website. They have many campaigns there. You can get on their email list. I’m on their email list. I love it when I get their emails. Things like, sign this petition or send an email to your Senator. And they give you a template of things that you can do. So at least, that gives you some scaffolding to start making some progress.

If you want to do something, but you don’t know where to start. The NCOSE website, and they have a summit every year, and getting involved that way is a good way to start making change in the world.

PERSONAL REFLECTIONS ON ABUSE

Anne: I want to say for me personally, when I was in my abusive relationship. I was so focused on addiction recovery, I didn’t understand it was abuse. So I went down the wrong road for a while. And I was also involved with NCOSE which was awesome. And I loved it, but I spent a lot of time trying to solve the world’s problems.

Not at that time to actually get to safety myself. And I have found that I am much more effective in making the world safer when my own home is safe. And it’s impossible to make the world safer, so that your home is safe. It’s much easier to make your home safe first, and then help the world, than the other way around. You can actually literally, within a few years, three to six years, actually make your home a safe place. It takes a long time.

It’s hard to learn boundaries. It’s hard to learn these skills, but it is possible. The fight and exploitation that we are all involved in, it’s like a worldwide battle that will take a long time. And so don’t wait for that. Don’t think, okay, well, when, the US passes a law that it’s illegal and my husband can’t watch it anymore, then I’ll be safe.

Please do not wait for that. Get to safety now. There is a peaceful and safe place.

THE SYSTEMIC NATURE OF ABUSE

Christen: One final thing from me, it’s just a broader point that I think reflects some of the things we’ve talked about I think the way people often perceive it can follow this pattern. Of the way that the invisibility of various forms of violence and abuse against women is invisible. Whether the abuser is a pimp, a husband, a boss, or a film producer.

Violence and abuse are not seen as political, systemic, as an attack against women as a class. And I think it’s important that we identify this as the sort of systemic thing that it is. Because it’s incompatible with gender equality in a society.

Anne: It is systemic, because when our listeners try to get out, they go to a therapist, they go to clergy, and they get like, oh, it’s a communication issue, or, oh, you’re just not having it enough. They don’t get, oh, he’s abusive. I went to therapy for seven years with an emotional and psychological abuser who also coerced me. I did addiction recovery for seven years. No one told me I was abused. It is insane.

I go to a church with an on the books doctrine and policy that no abuse will be tolerated. And all my clergy were like, oh, he’s such a good guy. They didn’t know it was abuse. I didn’t know it was abuse. Because of that misunderstanding and not labeling it for what it is. Women are continually harmed. And men continually abuse with impunity. And it is absolutely systemic and dangerous, not just for women, but also for men.

THE NEED FOR HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS

Anne: Because they can’t have a healthy relationship or have a peaceful, healthy life if they’re abusive. So, the answer for everyone is healthy, non-abusive interactions with other people, and non-exploitative interactions. So thank you for all your work again. I cannot stress enough how important their work is. Please visit their website, endsexualexploitation.org.

Anne: Christen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Christen: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: Okay, Melea, you got involved with NCOSE, because you’ve seen young children addicted to online inappropriate material for over 23 years, thanks for talking with me today.

Melea: Thank you for having me

Anne: Melea lives in Alabama. She’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can help protect children online in your location. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now?

Melea: We worked to pass what we call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names it had was the default to safety bill. We had different names at different points, but a similar bill passed in Utah a few years ago. And we wanted to pass it in Alabama. Several other states are interested in introducing it.

One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47 percent of young children have their first unwanted early exposure on smartphones and tablets. It’s just a common sense protection to have pre-existing filters already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on. Versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to figure out how to activate existing content filters.

DETAILS OF THE FILTER BILL

Melea: We have Supreme Court precedent that says it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. We know this bill would be upheld in court. And we’re confident it would be very enforceable. And all it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products and Google with their products, have smartphones and tablets.

That a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix. We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers. They would just do a very simple update that would allow phones activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter. And it automatically has broad based protections for young children, so they’re less likely to stumble across online inappropriate material at an early age.

People would say kids will find ways to get around it, obviously, but we were talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about it that stumble upon this content. And it Is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain. This gives them extra years of innocence, safety, and protection. I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups.

And have spoken to schools and churches in areas where kids don’t have involved parents. And those children, child on child, harmful behavior is rampant in those communities. Parents just hand children devices. They need resources to stop human trafficking and this behavior. No one’s looking for them, and they can become addicted to online inappropriate material and they act out what they see. That’s what children do. They copy what they see.

CHALLENGES & OPPOSITION

Melea: Then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children when I think about this bill. We’ve been excited. We had a great response and had 67 bipartisan co sponsors in the House, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. There are people working hard to stop human trafficking and help with this effort.

It was poised to be passed through the Senate. But we had one person in the Senate, who refused to allow it on the calendar. It only takes one or two people to set the calendar. They blocked it because a lot of opposition turned up to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. Big tech has been our opposition. And telecommunications companies have also shown up at all our hearings with their lobbyists.

Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon. They’re not held liable. It’s explicitly stated in our bill. They would show up, because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the industry will sometimes fight common sense browsing protections for kids. And it’s really sad. But that’s one of the things we dealt with. Unfortunately, this gentleman blocked it. We assume there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular.

IT’S NOT JUST CHEATING, IT’S EXPLOITATION

Anne: They’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t real. What’s the reason they don’t want to do it? Is it just simply money, this type of exploitation is sadly about money.

Melea: Money is a big factor. We know that historically, Google, AT&T or Verizon, do they get back general profits from online explicit material?

Melea: They do, and they have. There is potentially a loss of revenue. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape, or form. They don’t want to give up an inch. So I think money, power, and resistance to any form of regulation. To me, it’s a safety feature on a on a car or something like requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there.

Anne: I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot saying, I’m grateful for all the government services we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe. And that’s only something that the government can do, because the government is all of us. So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities to protect us. We need to do that through the government, because nobody’s going to willingly do that.

Although NCOSE has worked well with some companies. So that is exciting. They provide resources to stop human trafficking and are helping this bill to pass.

RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING: THE DIRTY DOZEN LIST

Melea: Absolutely, yeah, there’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative. We have what’s called the dirty dozen list, and name and shame the main promoters of exploitation. We have had tremendous success, because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies and resources to stop trafficking or unwanted exposure to online inappropriate material.

This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way. The opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the online inappropriate material, instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. We are like the National Center on Exploitation, and many of our allies are constantly fighting the industry to make changes there. But I wish our government was stepping up in this issue.

Because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore online inappropriate material, which is the majority of harmful on the internet. And also our laws prohibit the distribution of all online inappropriate material, whether soft core or hardcore, from our internet. But our department of justice for many years has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. That leaves us to tackle this issue of illegal content through corporate strategies and legislation.

Through lawsuits, like we have lawsuits against providers that are, we’re winning right now. We’re gutting companies because of lawsuits that we have with survivors. So we’re having to go at it every different angle.




PRACTICAL STEPS & COMMUNITY SUPPORT

Melea: And to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to stopping and resources to stop trafficking and exploitation in general. At NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy of seeing people floating down the river drowning. You rush in to try to pull out as many as possible, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as possible.

And you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone. Eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and find out there’s someone who’s shoving all these people into the river. And in this case, that’s the industry because today’s mainstream online inappropriate material is highly addictive.

It changes their belief system, gives them permission, giving beliefs about consent and buying. People become objects. It’s creating a world of harm. And we know that if we did not have rampant, hardcore material if it was restricted to adult bookstores. Like you had back in the eighties with soft core material. As bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what our laws on the book say.

RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING: NCOSE’S ACTION CENTER

Melea: Our world should look like when it comes to online inappropriate material in the United States. There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, or satellite TV. Can you imagine how different our world would be if our children could go through their developmental years without exposure to it around every corner? So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations.

But then there are also practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things feeding trafficking. So we’d love for them to come to our website. It’s endsexualexploitation.org. And if you go to the action center, you can immediately get involved in helping us stop human trafficking and winning these victories.

Anne: I recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So, one of my friends was on an airplane, and she was sitting next to a man, and they started talking about politics. He said, “I’m voting for this person because of his record on trafficking, because he will protect the children.”

Her ears perked up and she was like, oh, really, tell me more about this. He said, yeah, there’s these people are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. And then she said, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living?

Melea: What?

Anne: He owned a strip club.

Melea: Oh my gosh. You’re kidding.

Anne: No, so here’s a man who is an actual literal trafficker. He owns a strip club. And he’s talking about this nameless faceless group of people who’s like kidnapping kids when we know who they are. It’s him.

GETTING INVOLVED WITH NCOSE

Anne: We know who the exploiters are. It’s obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome, because it’s clear what’s happening. So that you can say, okay, this particular Senator, he’s the one blocking this bill. We can write to that particular Senator and ensure that this bill gets passed.

So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion, because at least this man who owned the strip club loved saying, oh yeah, we got to stop trafficking to distract from the fact that he was a trafficker. We need the resources to stop human trafficking, which NCOSE has.

Melea: Talk about denial and hypocrisy, or else just a good marketing scheme there, yeah.

Anne: That is scary these days. So I love that NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around for a long time.

Melea: They do their research, and they are careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m hesitant as a spokeswoman for NCOSE. I want to make sure I do my best to accurately present the facts, because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and do.

They’re very intentional and I respect that about them and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget and a small group of people.

Anne: Well, that’s the other thing I love about NCOSE.

NCOSE’S CREDIBILITY & INTEGRITY

Anne: Because so many people talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything. And I’m like, every year, NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. They have wins. And if you’re on their mailing list, you’ll get messages, and it’s so amazing to be part of that, because you can feel the momentum. And as much as this online stuff is this overarching, exploitative, abusive, systemic problem. It affects every woman who listens to this podcast.

And so many families all over the world, it’s horrific. It needs to be stopped, it’s an abuse issue. The exploiters, they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. They want people to think it’s a lost cause or fine, and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is, there’s nothing you can do.

Melea: They want it to seem that it’s a right and an entitlement, first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. They want people to feel this is a free speech issue. And it’s not, it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything they do. They have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this free speech coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well.

They have some groups that sound like they’re anti trafficking, that they’re actually the industry putting up a false front to sound like they’re being benevolent, and they’re doing everything they can to undermine decency in society.

THE BEST RESOURCES TO STOP HUMAN TRAFFICKING

Melea: So you have to do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues. A legislator presented this filter bill, just like in our state and in other states. Several groups came in acting like they were, pro family, pro children presenting Trojan horse stills that sounded anti exploitation, and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side.

As we educate the public about the harms of it on the brain and relationships in society. And as we educate the public about what the law actually says. They become empowered to push back against this evil industry.

Anne: And so that my listeners are not distracted by actual traffickers who say, Hey, I want to stop trafficking. So you don’t accidentally support a trafficker. NCOSE is the place to get your information to stop human trafficking. They are trustworthy, they’ve been around for so long, and they do their homework. And they know who the specific people are and talk about specific actionable things. That’s what makes it so effective.

Melea: Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you.

Anne: Yes, you too. Thank you.

“How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy.

But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history.

In this article we’ll cover the following:

The basics about podcasts

How to listen podcasts safely and privately

Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships

How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos

Protecting yourself when systems fail

Let’s get started.

WHAT IS A PODCAST, EXACTLY?

A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest.

For Example: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you.

HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS

STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE

Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you.

For iPhone users:

Look for and open the Apple Podcasts app

OR download Spotify for free from the App Store

For Android users:

Download Spotify or YouTube Music from the Play Store

These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening.

STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO

Open your app and search for: “Betrayal Trauma Recovery”
You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it).

Tap on the show and then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using).

STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES

You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi)
OR
If you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down)

Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history.

5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT

Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety:

Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks.

Find btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history.

Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually.

Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app.

Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen.

Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This is emotional self-care.

LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP

If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need.

Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.”

THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY

If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage…

Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma…

If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse…

Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity…

Start here:
🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧

It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace.

BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION?

Try these listener favorites:

The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity

My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story

3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern

You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast.

TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor.

Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing.

Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR?

Elinor: 21 years, so a long time.

Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have?

Elinor: I have three children with him.

Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group?

Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it.

THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY

Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone.

He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time.

Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation.

It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES

Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something.

Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that?

Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life.

Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation.

Elinor: Yes, drastically.

Anne: Which is daunting.

Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face.

MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM

Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy?

Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul.

Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her.

They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital.

How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him?

Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him.

THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF

Anne: They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy.

They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this.

Elinor: Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him.

And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if.

Anne: One of the message strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION

Anne: So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.”

Elinor: It flips the tables, doesn’t it?

Anne: We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious.

They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast” because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered.
Did you guys ever try couple therapy?

Elinor: No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.”

Anne: Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy.

Elinor: Uh-huh.

DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION

Anne: Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs?

Elinor: When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case.

Anne: Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him?

Elinor: He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.”

And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?”

It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.”

And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.”

HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH

Elinor: And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything.

I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?”

And he was like, “You’ll never find out.”

He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety.

I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful.

Anne: My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN

Anne: Are you divorced now?

Elinor: I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly.

Anne: Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help.

Elinor: I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right?

But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying.

He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened.

IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS

Elinor: There was no acknowledgment. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.”

I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks.

And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse.

I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat.

I LEFT AGAIN, BUT MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK

Elinor: Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents.

That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety.

After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say.

Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him.

And I was like, but we need to keep our family together. And she sat in the bathroom and cried for two hours and wouldn’t come out. I should have learned more from that. But I thought, “well, we’re gonna make this so much better.” But no, she never did come back. She was 18 and she just lived on her own after that. Which must have been so incredibly hard, and my heart breaks for her. She knew she would write me, and say, “Mom, when you’re ready, come be with me.”

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE’S STILL ABUSIVE

Anne: I think what was happening was all the abuse was still in your head. And you didn’t know that it wasn’t your own thoughts, it was all his abuse, and he was still abusing you.

Elinor: Yes.

Anne: Even though you were away from him. People don’t understand that. You’re still being abused. So it takes a while for the abuse to drain out of your head, and you have to be away from it in order for that to happen. It wasn’t that you weren’t ready. You hadn’t learned to separate that out. You were in the early stages of learning safety steps like, how do you listen to a podcast and find help online.

And the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, has a way to write down what your thoughts are, and then to realize they’re actually not your thoughts. They’re the abuser’s thoughts. That’s helpful for victims. This story haunts me. And the way I came up with some of these workshop strategies comes from this. A woman was like, I will separate from my husband. I feel right about it. She’d prayed about it a ton. She could see all the abuse. She was like, check, check, check. He’s abusive. And she went to the temple, and she came out and said, the spirit told me I needed to stay with him.

Elinor: Oh my gosh.

Anne: She felt so strongly about it. And I was like, who am I to say that’s not the spirit? But I started wondering, why are women thinking that the spirit tells them to stay in proximity to evil? And then, over time, I realized it’s because the abuser’s abuse is so tangled up in their head that everything feels bad.

THE THOUGHT OF LEAVING FEELS TERRIBLE

Anne: So when they think about leaving him, it feels really bad, and that doesn’t feel like the spirit. It feels like something else. So you’re like, every time I think about leaving, I feel terrible. And so those who want to follow the spirit and the spirit is peace. The spirit is calm. When we think about leaving, it doesn’t feel peaceful. It doesn’t feel calm.

And nobody warns you about that. They’re like, follow the spirit. And you’re like, “Okay, well the spirit is not telling me to leave. ‘Cause every time I think about leaving, my body’s like, no, that’s not right.” And your alarm system is going off. Really what’s happening is your alarm system is going off. It’s telling you danger, danger, danger. But he hijacked it long ago. And so he’s twisted your own internal warning system to tell you to move closer to him rather than away.

So you’re just trying to do what the “spirit” is telling you to do, in that moment. So to help explain it to a woman when she’s in that, is what the Betrayal Trauma Workshop is about. Something as simple as learning how do you listen to a podcast safely, can lead to finding help.

Yeah, so that she can see the difference between his lies and her actual warning system and what it’s been warning her about. Because they’re so good at manipulating us that they know how to use even our own survival mechanisms against us.

Elinor: That is so true, that feels really true to me.

IT FELT WRONG TO BREAK UP OUR MARRIAGE

Anne: Yeah, so you weren’t doing anything wrong. You just didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you didn’t wanna go against what you thought in the moment was the truth.

Elinor: Yeah, definitely, it felt wrong to break up our marriage. I still hadn’t fully admitted to myself how deeply abusive he was. And I kept thinking, oh, we’re gonna make this better.

I was so beaten down about every aspect of myself because of all the things he said and did. That I didn’t know who I would be without him. And in my mind, believed that without him, I was lost and worthless. Which obviously is not true. But I felt that way at the time. So I went back and then I stayed there with him for the next year and a half.

And my bishop kept checking in on me. People would check in on me, like people knew it wasn’t good, and they were trying to help me, but I wouldn’t go. ‘Cause I’m like, this is my marriage. I’m going to save it somehow. I studied all sorts of psychology things, like I wondered what sort of disorder he might have.

Went down all the rabbit holes and had to stop. I left again the third time with my parents’ help, rented a house and lived separately. and stayed separate from him for a couple of months. I actually had a protective order for a few weeks, trying to keep us separate and safe. He was doing all sorts of things, psychologically and spiritually. Just on every single level of abuse.




THE MOMENT I REALIZED HOW BAD IT REALLY WAS

Elinor: I had started keeping a journal for my own sanity about what was happening. And I’m glad I did, because one of the things I told myself was, oh, he’s not doing these things very often. But when I started writing it down, I realized he was grabbing me by the throat every two weeks. Every two weeks he would do that, and he had groomed me for this. He just groomed me probably on every level. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding yours was so helpful.

But with this whole throat grabbing, he would call it holding my throat. Obviously, this is choking, right? But that’s what I would call it. He holds my throat. And when I would tell people about it, they would just be horrified. But to me it was another Tuesday.

When he would grab my throat, he would make me say things and do things. And obviously when someone is holding your throat, you just do what they say. And he would make me repeat things. He would say, “Tell me that I own you.” and I would have to repeat these horrible things. And before I left the third time, it was becoming so overt.

He was like, “Tell me about how stupid you are. How stupid are you? Go ahead, humble yourself. Say it out loud.” And I would mumble out the words, because it sickened me. It felt so wrong.

And I would say, ‘I’m stupid.”

He would say, “Go on, say it a little louder. I couldn’t hear you.”

And I would say, “I’m stupid.”

He was like, “Go on, say it like you mean it.” I would find myself repeating these horrible things over and over and over again.

HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND PROTECT YOURSELF

Elinor: The psychological abuse is so disturbing. Then right before I left with that protective order, I woke up one night and he was holding me by the throat while I was sleeping. It was hard to breathe, and I just laid there, stock still.

I think if anyone else had been in this situation. They would be screaming and like, oh, let go of me, stop it and you have this reaction. But I had been in this so long, I knew I must hold very still. I must not say a word. And then hopefully he will let go, because I knew if I tried to fight against it, it would get worse.

Anne: I disagree with you, anyone who’s been through what you had been through would’ve stayed still too.

Elinor: Okay.

Anne: A hundred percent. What you did sounds totally normal under the circumstances. We know about abuse, and share it so others can learn.

Elinor: That’s self preservation.

Anne: Yes.

Elinor: A lot of the things that I did sound so wackadoo to me now, like they just sound like nonsense. But I appreciate that you understand that’s exactly what you have to do in those circumstances. Just to stay safe.

Anne: Yeah, to survive.

Elinor: Yeah, my children sometimes talk about how people say, “Oh, you should have done this and you should have done that.”

And they’re like, “Sometimes you say it too, Mom, now that we’re out. Like, if I was there again, I would’ve done this, or I wouldn’t have done that.” And they said, “No, we never would’ve, because we all knew it was going to get worse. We all felt that undercurrent of like he was holding back.”

I HADN’T RECOGNIZED PHYSICAL ABUSE

Anne: That is the manipulation. I think people don’t understand that is the abuse. That you know instinctively that you can’t do that or you’re going to be very injured. Anybody would do that. I look back at what I did and think, what is wrong with me? I would do the opposite. He’d be physically intimidating, like he was gonna punch me in the face, and in my mind I’d be like, let’s see if I could make him punch me in the face. And so I’d push through it. I thought, if he punched me, I would know.

Elinor: Yeah.

Anne: So I’m pushing through, and he never punched me in the face. So then I was confused. Wait, I guess he’s not abusive. That’s the hard part about it. He could punch you in the face. He could not punch you in the face. Either way, it’s abuse.

Elinor: That was one of the things I recognized from your podcast. When I learned how do you listen to a podcast safely, different kinds of things surfaced that I hadn’t recognized were physical abuse. Obviously the throat holding, but like there was a ton of sexual abuse and coercion that I had not put in the physical abuse box.

I think many people do this. I categorized, punching and hitting, and like, oh, he pushed me down the steps. That would be physical abuse. But there were so many other things he did that were physical abuse that I learned from listening to you and the people on your podcast. That I was like, oh he’s doing all these things and more. He is physically abusive.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SAFETY WHEN SYSTEMS FAIL

Elinor: Like it’s not when he’s gonna be physically abusive. He is now, and he doesn’t always need to get to the next point for me to step in line with what he wants. He just does as much as he needs to, to control me. Which was very effective.

Anne: Yeah, it’s scary.

Elinor: Yeah, I feel really blessed that we are on this side of it now. I’m glad I know, I’m glad I do not have the desire to ever go back. The third time I left with a protective order. Both times my protective orders failed. I’d have ’em for a couple weeks, and then I would go for the full protective order, and I could not give enough evidence to prove what had happened to me in the eyes of law. And that was so frustrating and demoralizing for me, because all these physically abusive and terribly scary things were happening.

But during a six hour court hearing. There just wasn’t enough evidence, the judge said, to bring a protective order against him. And of course, he was so good at presenting himself. He came in not looking like the “abuser”. He presents like a first class citizen, well educated, active in his church and a pillar to the community. And it was so believable that the judge was like, well, he seems like a great guy, and you seem like a great person, and you guys just need to work it out.

And that was so heartbreaking for me to tell my story in court in front of other people and policemen, and just such a terrifying environment. Your podcast and learning how do you listen to a podcast would have helped me.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU AREN’T BELIEVED

Anne: And have them not believe you. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding ours for support could have helped prepare you.

Elinor: Not believe me.

Anne: That is a nightmare.

Elinor: Yes, and to do that twice and still not be believed. I was grateful at the end of the first court hearing, not joking, six hours. There was a recess for lunch in the middle, it went on so long. The lawyer had told me they averaged 10 to 20 minutes, and I sat through several, and that is how they average six hours.

At the end, after the judge dismissed it, and I am just in tears. This lady had to sit through all my court, came up to me, and she was like, I wanna tell you something. I believe you.” That meant the world to me to have her believe me. Because at that point, it’s hard enough to believe myself. It’s hard enough to get up there on the stand and be cross examined, but to have the judge throw it out. The second one was three hours. I knew it would be long.

Anne: Was it the same judge?

Elinor: Different judge, different state.

Anne: What?

Elinor: He presents so well. He is so believable, so charismatic, and he knows how to present himself as this wonderful guy.

Anne: Also, his abuse of you doesn’t leave marks. I mean, he might, “hold your throat”, but it didn’t leave a bruise.

Elinor: ‘Cause he knew when to stop. everything was behind closed doors. There was never a mark, like you said, there was nothing to go to show someone.

FLEEING THE HOUSE FOR THE LAST TIME

Elinor: I remember my daughter at one point telling me, “Mom, I just wish he would hit you. I don’t want you to be hit.” But she was like, “What can we say that he’s doing? If he hit you, we could say he hit you, but everything else he does is right at the edge.” She was like, “I wanna call the police, but I don’t know what I would say when they got here.” And we all know he would’ve just turned the tables on me entirely.

Anne: A hundred percent.

Elinor: After the protective order failed, we ended up fleeing the house with a couple of suitcases and our library books. Which I was somehow worried were gonna be overdue. That’s my brain. We lived in hiding and started the whole court process, which is an absolute nightmare. The post separation abuse, the court abuse, it’s like a stress ball. You squeeze it one way, it’s gonna come out somewhere else. His abuse just pops up in all sorts of creative ways, he just doesn’t stop. Learning how do you listen to a podcast helped keep me focused on our safety.

The children in two years have not been able to access their clothes, their toys. There’s a court order saying we should be able to go get our stuff. He placed logs across the driveway, so we couldn’t drive up. I hope to be divorced from him someday. I’m glad to hear that you are now 10 years divorced from your abuser. I hope for that for myself and my children too.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL

Anne: There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and when people told me that, I was very mad.

Because it didn’t feel like that. I was like, my whole life is ruined. I will be in this tunnel the rest of my life. Then post-divorce, when I experienced continued emotional and psychological abuse, due to his “co-parenting”. Take our free emotional abuse test to determine if you are being abused. So I was divorced, and he was still wreaking absolute havoc on my life and my children’s life. It felt like torture. I’d say in my case, and I want to stand up for abuse victims everywhere. ‘Cause you did the right thing. Teach people how do you listen to a podcast to get help.

You thought you should do at the time, and it makes total sense. You’re trying to survive. But to outsiders, they’re like, why did she do that? In my case, I did everything right. So for me, I always fought him. Or I was like, no, you’re not doing that to me.

I did everything “the right way”. So an outsider wouldn’t be like, “Well, why did you do that?” Because I did everything right. The weird thing is they blame you for it, even if you do it right. So it’s a trap either way, because I got a protective order and kept it and didn’t break it, and the second it was going to expire, I got another one. So I had a six year protective order that he was still able to abuse me via co-parenting messages.

When I went to court to try to take custody away. I had 40 pages of documented physical abuse and other abuse. It didn’t make a difference.

IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU DO EVERYTHING “RIGHT”

Anne: So being the person who “did everything right” and still couldn’t get help. That’s why I’m like, I have to stand up for abuse victims all over. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything “right”. The victims who are not doing it the way other people think they should. That’s not why they’re being abused. It’s still not their fault. It has nothing to do with them. So the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop really came out of my absolute frustration that somebody like me could do everything right and still be forced to be abused by the court system.

The system was supposed to protect me. ‘Cause at some point I was like, God is the only way out of this. As a Christian, I was like, Christ is the deliverer. As I studied deliverance and the scriptures, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies came out of that.

And for women who aren’t women of faith, these are secular strategies that work no matter what, and people don’t have to pray for them to work. They work great, period. ‘Cause a lot of women have been really spiritually abused, and they don’t wanna pray. And I don’t blame them.

So I’m like, these work no matter what. You can learn how do you listen to a podcast and get help. That’s where the strategies came from, and they delivered me completely. He signed the kids away. In some cases, they don’t actually physically sign the rights to the kids away. He did out of court, but some of ’em just start leaving you alone. I don’t ever recommend that women take men like this to court if they’re not in court already. You’ll see when you take it.

Elinor: Glad to hear that.

HE CONTINUES TO DRAG THIS OUT

Anne: ‘Cause court usually works in their favor. Even if you win after five years and spend $250,000. That’s not a win. You were just abused for two more years, and you’re in debt, like you just bought a house that’s not a house.

Elinor: The lawyer bought a house.

Anne: Exactly.

Elinor: I participate in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, because I definitely need extra tips. Like right now in this legal side of it, I am drowning. Last year, I felt so hopeful, just finally being away. The gratitude and freedom like not missing him was so awesome. And this year, I thought we’d be divorced by now. I thought I would be free in more ways. And, oh no, that’s not his plan. He will continue to drag this out. So I am really glad to hear about more tips. I need them.

Anne: Would you mind coming back? And let me know how it’s going.

Elinor: I would love to.

Anne: For women who are maybe listening, like you did in your car, if someone’s listening and maybe they’re in the same boat you were, where their body is screaming out, don’t leave. That seems really unsafe.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: I KEPT PRAYING FOR CLARITY

Anne: Do you have any words to share with them?

Elinor: I appreciated the things you shared when I knew how do you listen to a podcast and listened to yours about asking yourself, are you safe? And getting yourself to a safe place before you make that decision about them. That helped me. I started asking myself, am I safe? Am I in a place where I can feel peaceful enough to get an answer?

It was so crazy in my home. I kept praying for clarity, but you can’t get clarity in that kind of situation. I just kept praying and praying, and it just didn’t come. When I finally did leave, that’s when the clarity came. I look back now and I’m like, I just wanna give myself a huge hug and be like, girl, it is okay. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you did the best you could with what you had then. And you wanted to keep your kids’ lives together and keep them safe.

One of the things that I read somewhere that really helped me make the decision to go though, was that children witnessing domestic violence is child abuse. That was really powerful for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, my poor children. There was so much behind closed doors, but they could feel it. The things that I hear from them now about what they felt and what they saw and heard that I didn’t think they had experienced, oh, my heart for these little ones.

IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO

Elinor: I wish I could just give all the people experiencing the kinds of things that I’ve experienced and many other women have experienced. I wanna give them a huge hug and say, it’s going to be all right. And ask them to be kind to themselves.

Because we’re second guessing, we’re living in such fear. It’s hard to know what to do. I’m just looking back on myself and giving myself a lot of grace and saying, “You did great. You left, good job.”

Anne: Yeah, and I think it helps women to hear somebody like me say, I did everything right and still couldn’t get out. If you know how do you listen to a podcast, you can hear other’s stories.

Elinor: Oh my gosh, yes.

Anne: Because then it’s like, oh, it wouldn’t have mattered how I acted. He was going to abuse me, and the way the system is, the way everything is getting to safety, is very difficult and miraculous. So there’s nothing that any of us could have done better under the circumstances. At the same time, there are some principles that had we known them. But nobody tells us. So it’s still not our fault. We didn’t learn about it in high school. We didn’t learn about it in college. There is no therapist out there. That has the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies.

I’ve never heard anybody say it. It’s not anything like I’ve ever heard. ‘Cause all anybody else has is don’t talk to him at all, and you’re forced to talk to him. So that’s not helpful.

HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST LED ME TO THE LIGHT

Anne: And, communicate better.

Elinor: Oh yeah, the communicate better is such a bunch of garbage. When you’re dealing with this kind of person who’s going to use all communications against you.

Anne: Yeah, so either way it’s a disaster. Well, I’m proud of you. You are brave and strong. And you’re incredible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you, even if it feels like there’s not. I always have to say that.

‘Cause every time somebody said that to me, I was so mad at them that I was really frustrated and wanted to tell them they didn’t know what they were talking about. If you’re feeling like that, I totally get it. And in that case, I’ll just sit here in the dark with you. It’s okay. People may recommend listening to a podcast, and you may not know how do you listen to a podcast, but taking that first step could be the one thing that helps the most.

Elinor: Thank you so much.

Anne: Until the light comes to you.

Elinor: Thank you,

Anne: Thank you so much.

Elinor: Thanks for having me.

By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity, hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened.

Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse.

To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test.

5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY

1. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY OFTEN STARTS WITH THE WRONG QUESTION

Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth.

The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety.

2. MANIPULATION OFTEN CONTINUES INSIDE MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue.

If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy.

3. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN MISS THE REAL PROBLEM: EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice.

Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation.

The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all.

4. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC

In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior.

Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it.

5. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN PROLONG MANIPULATION

The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation.

Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety.

Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety.

Get Professional Support: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW

Anne:  Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne.

By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction.

Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused.

I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens.

Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process.

I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today,

And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview.

5 RISKS OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: Here’s the quick overview:

Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into.

Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different.

Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything.

If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic.

In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation.

So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment.

WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure.

So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist.

In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion.

It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know.

THE RISKS Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people.

I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice.

The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs.

A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there.

WAITING FOR A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE CAN KEEP WOMEN IN UNSAFE SITUATIONS

Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point.

Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening.

And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice.

When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed.

QUESTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience.

If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about.

Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question.

THERAPISTS’ ASSUMPTIONS & MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES

Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary.

The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative.

This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing training about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.”

Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while.

WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING

Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices.

So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal?

And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries. And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse, or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous.

SAFETY CONCERNS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES

Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved.

And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long.

It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on.

Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity.

HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY

Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died.

So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote.

She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her?

What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to.

MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED

Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview?

She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.”

Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a re-balancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a re-balancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process.

So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure.

ISSUES WITH GROOMING DURING THE THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE PROCESS

Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? A therapeutic disclosure is not necessarily marriage therapy for infidelity, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved.

That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy?

That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.”

There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts.

MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC

Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe.

If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before.

Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on how to use it to groom his wife.

She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation.

WHY OBSERVING GENUINE CHANGE FROM A PLACE OF SAFETY MATTERS

Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference in marriage therapy for infidelity between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies?

Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member.

She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse?

And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is.








The TRANSACTIONAL NATURE Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes.

I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming.

All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting.

But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.

TIPS FOR BETRAYED WIVES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money.

I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been.

I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know.

ISSUES WITH POLYGRAPHS

Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices.

Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process in marriage therapy for infidelity are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice?

If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice.

She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know.

RELYING ON PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS INSTEAD OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES

Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his emotional abuse by trying to get something from him. Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a marriage therapy for infidelity couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygraph examiner is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know.

I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God.

And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.”

I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it.

THERAPIST’S VIEWS ON POLYGRAPHS

Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data.

She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.”

So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.”

So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery after marriage therapy for infidelity and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true.

And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her.

THE CHAOS INCOMPLETE DISCLOSURES CREATE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.”

Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. No disclosure is better than any disclosure at all.

So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures.

What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately.

FINAL THOUGHTS ON MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY

Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing.

She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me.

All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family.

So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you.

EDUCATING YOURSELF ABOUT ABUSE

Anne: Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations.

That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what.

So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever.

GETTING THE RIGHT SUPPORT

Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand emotional abuse and betrayal trauma. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse dynamics, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.