Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Are you wondering how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids…maybe even part of you is still hoping things will change…for the kids’ sake. That makes sense. In fact, here’s the five stages most women go through when thinking about leaving a toxic man.

THE 5 STAGES OF HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP

1. THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER

Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you even start thinking about how to leave a toxic relationship when have kids and you realize things need to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore.

It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.” Maybe you even discover he’s emotionally abusive. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

2. YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step in how to leave a toxic relationship is, to do something about it. This could be something as simple as journaling about what’s happening, so you can keep a clear mind or listening to a podcast that helps you feel less alone and gives you strategies. Doing something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger.

3. YOU DECIDE TO PROTECT YOURSELF

Making changes in order to protect yourself can feel like crossing a bridge and knowing you can’t go back to the way things were before. Maybe you decide not to do something with the person who is hurting or scaring you, like not riding in the car with them when they’re angry and aggressive. Or you stop trying to explain how you’re feeling, especially if they use those feelings against you later. It could even mean moving away from them.

4. YOU START DEVELOPING NEW STRATEGIES FOR LIVING

It’s not uncommon for women to start to feel a mix of greater clarity and emotional safety after making these changes. It can also be uncomfortable at first. You’re getting used to a new way of living. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build toward a better life. You might start to rekindle old dreams, or work on your career. Little by little, as your confidence in yourself grows, things start to get better even if it’s hard.

5. YOU CAN SEE A CLEAR PATH TO THE PEACEFUL LIFE YOU WANT

In the last step, you start to really believe you deserve and can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about creating a safe home, doing things you enjoy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from surviving to living life well.

Being able to visualize this life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe.

TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As we describe the processes we went through in determining how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, listen for how you can protect yourself from his emotional abuse. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map.

I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies. The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to leave a toxic relationship with kids, because my ex-husband, even eight years after divorce, was being emotionally abusive almost daily. He was messaging me all the time.

And was counter-parenting. He canceled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse?

And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband?

THE COMMUNICATION TRAP WITH ABUSIVE EX-PARTNERS

Anne: Janet before you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about all the things you tried, in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids?

Janet: A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 12-Step for wives of pornography addicts, and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know.

We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time.

In the Living Free Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house.

THE TEMPTATION TO ARGUE & COMMUNICATE WITH ABUSERS

Janet: And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos.

Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work.

Anne: Yeah, and The Living Free Workshop explains why. So I’ll leave that to Living Free, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the Living Free strategies can protect you from his emotional abuse in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids without communicating anything to him.

STRATEGIES FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS

Anne: It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here.

I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse. So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the Living Free strategies.

If you take The Living Free Workshop, all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the Living Free Workbook. If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages.

I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this?

ANNE BLYTHE’S PERSONAL JOURNEY TOWARD DELIVERANCE FROM ABUSE

Anne: They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying. Everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. I didn’t have language for it at the time, but I was desperately trying to understand how to leave a toxic relationship and still protect myself and my children. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt.

So after studying deliverance for a year and continuing to pray. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world.

Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court.

Anne: I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday.

THE ISRAELITES’ STORY AS A METAPHOR FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS

Anne: With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from from my husband’s emotional abuse. I’m free now.

I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert.

We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole.

And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues.

STAGE 1: THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER

Anne: Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better.

So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there.

STAGE 2:YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to leave a toxic relationship with kids.

They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage?

How To Leave A Toxic Relationship
Janet: I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above.

Anne: Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get help for betrayal trauma in marriage. We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there.

HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS: OVERCOMING FEAR

Janet: This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on.

Anne: Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. The Living Free Workshop explains this really well.

So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts.

And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south.

NAVIGATING THE EXODUS: A JOURNEY OF SURVIVAL

Anne: Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck.

By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation.

The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re going to be up to your waist in mud, tripping over rocks. And if it were me, I would think the entire time, is this water going to fall down on us and kill us?

They didn’t know if they would even survive crossing the Red Sea. I’m guessing that, due to the practicalities of the situation, some people were like, uh, I’ll take my chances with Pharaoh. Because, the way forward seems too dangerous.

HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS: THE RED SEA CROSSING

Anne: We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea in the mud, and the rocks. But it could have taken days. Luckily, the Lord held the Egyptians back with that pillar of fire. So they couldn’t come destroy them during the process of crossing. But again, the entire time they’re crossing, they don’t even know if they’re going to survive.

Janet: And they didn’t know what was on the other side. They’ve never tasted that freedom. They don’t know what that land will look like. So they could see the Red Sea parted freeze and not take those steps through the mud.

Anne: I remember praying. Save me, God save me. And God is like, yes, I’m here. I will save you. Start walking across the mud. And I’m thinking. But I don’t want to get my feet dirty. As I learned these strategies, I remember telling God, like, what, you want me to step in that mud?

Janet: This analogy of the Israelites approaching the Red Sea and not knowing what’s going to happen. Their life had to get so bad that it pushes them to conquer the fear of watching those waters part. Looking at that ground and actually doing the hard steps of sludging through with all their items. With the fear that the water might come down on them. They don’t know what’s on the other side. They don’t know if their enemies will get through.

It’s almost that gift of the emotional abuse from my husband got so bad that there’s no other choice. I don’t know what this will look like to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. I don’t know how hard it will be to pass through those waters.

STAGE 3: COMMIT TO PROTECT YOURSELF (NO MATTER WHAT)

Anne: When I look at this map, I think the reason they went down south is instead of just going up and going east over the top part of the Sinai peninsula. Is that once they got to the other side and the water fell down, they couldn’t go back.

And that’s the third stage of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, protection. It’s protecting yourself through the strategies I teach in The Living Free Workshop, and committing to those strategies no matter what. No matter how much he tries to manipulate you or whatever grooming tactics he uses. That you maintain those safety strategies, not just with him, but with people around you.

https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc

Because I think the reason God had them go south and cross the Red Sea was because he did not want them to go back. It was also a protection. There would be no other way to stop Pharaoh’s army, had they gone across the north of the Sinai peninsula. God wants us to use safety strategies to protect ourselves. And to use them, no matter how hard it gets. The Living Free Workshop gives women strategies to protect themselves.

And these strategies work, but the key is commitment. If your husband is abusive. He’s going to try to exploit you in all kinds of ways. He may groom you. You don’t know what’s going to happen when you start actually protecting yourself. The Living Free Workshop lays out exactly what to do to protect yourself. In a way that he can’t get around it, it’s not up to him anymore. It has nothing to do with him. You can protect yourself no matter what he does.

THE EMOTIONAL JOURNEY OF POST-ABUSE RECOVERY: WANDERING IN THE WILDERNESS

Anne: The Israelites only had two options. Be slaughtered by Pharaoh or recognize that God had presented this safety strategy. He parted the Red Sea. And they could walk through.

So let’s talk about the other side. On the other side, they’re protected from Pharaoh’s army, because Pharaoh’s army is now destroyed. But they don’t know where they’re going, and they don’t know where they’re going to get food or water. I’m sure. Some of them regretted crossing the Red Sea, because now they couldn’t go back. And they missed that lush farmland, where they used to live. Many of them probably feel worse off now than before.

Pharaoh is not oppressing them, but their situation is difficult. The Living Free strategies require sacrifice. It will feel like you’re just living day to day, and you won’t know exactly what’s going to happen. So it’ll feel like wandering around. But if you commit to the strategies. They can help you be delivered from the emotional abuse by your husband.

The children of Israel wander around what is today Saudi Arabia, the Sinai peninsula, for 40 years. They get manna from heaven. And they have to live day by day, they can’t plan for the future. They don’t have a map. They’re led by a pillar of sand. So they went from this lush delta where they had everything they needed. To living in a tent in the middle of nowhere.

STAGE 4: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP USING PROTECTIVE STRATEGIES DAY-BY-DAY

Anne: When I went to Jerusalem, we wandered in the wilderness. I looked out the window of the bus. There were actual dirt devils out there all over the place. I was, what? Some of them were bigger than others, but that pillar by day, that they followed to figure out where to go. I thought, I can totally see this happening. That is fascinating to me, and it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it was like a hundred degrees. It was so, so hot.

The scriptures talk about the cloud that would come between the Israelites and the sun to shade them. There’s the pillar that guides them. They get manna from heaven day by day. They get water out of a rock. They’re committed to protecting themselves from Pharaoh.

As you use The Living Free Strategies, there will be miracles along the way. In my faith, we call them tender mercies. This is stage four of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. Using protective strategies day by day. Not knowing exactly where they’ll lead you.

Janet: This phase was like euphoria, the waters did not crash down on top of me. For the first time in however many decades, I can breathe. I have a safe home for my kids. It’s like living for the first time.

Anne: I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again. Or at this stage, something like. I went outside and I could see color.

Janet: That I could taste food,.

Anne: Yeah.

Janet: Or sit there for hours, like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live.

FINDING DELIVERANCE FROM ABUSE

Anne: I think they’re amazed that they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need. Even though they might not have what they want, their lifestyle is maybe drastically different than before. They might not be eating the same foods they ate before, but they’re living on rice and beans. They’re not starving to death. For awhile, it feels good. Then it’s like, wait a minute. It would be nice to know what’s going to happen next.

Even though you’re mostly protected from abuse. There’s still quite a bit of uncertainty. When I was in Jerusalem. I also went to Jordan and literally wandered around in the same wilderness that it talks about in the Bible. Then we went to Mount Nebo. Mount Nebo is where the Israelites went right before they could go to the promised land. From Mount Nebo, they look out and see the promised land. Across the Dead Sea.

It was surreal to be in Jerusalem. It’s a lot, like the Salt Lake Valley where I’m from. I felt at home there, because it has the same geographical features as Utah. We actually have Utah Lake, and there’s a river between Utah Lake and the Great Salt Lake called the Jordan River. It’s the same thing in Jerusalem, the Red Sea, then the River Jordan flows into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea and the Great Salt Lake, both do not drain. So they’re both salt, and you can easily float in them.








STAGE 5: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP AND FIND A PATH TO A PEACEFUL LIFE

Anne: Then in Jordan, we went to Petra, which is like Zion National Park. In fact, we even have a mountain in Utah called Mount Nebo. And my mom was raised right under the shadow of Mount Nebo, in Utah. So I felt at home in Jerusalem and in Jordan. I feel like God tasked me to help deliver women from abuse.

While I was on Mount Nebo. I wanted to talk to Moses. because Moses never made it down from mountain Nebo. He actually died on Mount Nebo. He never made it to the promised land. So on Mount Nebo, I thought maybe I would never make it. Maybe I won’t be delivered, but I want to make sure everybody else is. So Moses, please teach me what you want to teach me while I’m here.

So I left the tour group. Trying to find a quiet place where I could pray. And Moses did not come and talk to me, unfortunately. But Mount Nebo is where I had the inspiration for stage five. You can see a clear path to the peaceful life that you want. And you know exactly how to get there.

Janet, we were talking before. And you mentioned that was how you felt when you discovered strategic communication. You knew you needed to do it. Can you talk about seeing that clear path? And then of course. The difficulty of walking the path of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids.

Janet: Strategic communication was the hardest thing for me. The mixture of fears from my court experience, portrayed as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him. Just the fear of him and what he had put me through.

SEEKING A PROMISED FUTURE: FROM MOUNT NEBO TO WANTING JUSTICE

Janet: I was constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, holding his hand through parenting, reminding him when early out was, even if it was his parenting time. Just constantly, he lived rent free in my brain. Getting to the part where you stop trying to explain. It wasn’t the fear, I just couldn’t give up wanting justice. Wanting to show him in his face what he is doing to the kids and have him own it.

Until I realized he’s even using that. That’s even a way of him trapping me on purpose. He was abusing the kids to get to me. There’s no justice. Just the pure anger for whatever the situation is, anger, fear. Will he take me back to court, or could I get in trouble somehow?

Being so worn out, the covert emotional abuse will not stop, and just being tumbled like in the waves. Coming up for air, and then another wave comes, and then coming up for air, and another wave comes. the exhaustion of trying to communicate somehow. It all leads into a different trap.

Living Free made how to stop the emotional abuse so simple. The lessons are very short. It’s like your best friend is holding your hand. Print out the workbook, you can watch it again. If you feel like you missed that concept, go back and watch it again. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my divorce. Strategic communication was so good.

LESSONS FROM THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP

Anne: That’s so exciting. The tools in Living Free are about protecting ourselves. But they’re not about asking victims to let go, move on, or stop giving away their power. Or all those triggers, I think stupid things people say to us. Of course, you would want justice. That anger will serve you well. Speaking of anger when I first discovered the strategies. Uh, I did not want to do them. It. did not seem like the best idea. Especially with strategic communication.

I was like, what? You want me to write it like that? That’s ridiculous. But I did it anyway. And the fruits were incredible. Not only did they improve my situation, but I felt better from the inside out. It wasn’t until I implemented the strategies that I figured out why. And I explained all of it well in the Living Free Workshop.

Janet: When I started doing strategic messaging, I saw the benefits. You’re not, in harm’s way. But my ex shifted to come at me from a different angle.

Anne: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Cause of their exploitative character. They’re not happy when they can’t exploit you anymore. Cool thing is though, after Living Free, you can identify the traps.

Janet: Absolutely, and staying kind to ourselves as we trip and fall and get stuck in another trap and use it as a learning experience. I learned each time, and keep going. And keep going and keep going. That’s the gift. You’re right where you need to do what you need to do.

STRATEGIES FOR PEACE & RESILIENCE: FINDING LIBERATION

Anne: The reason I laughed is because it’s a journey to find out how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. You know, there were times where I wasn’t sure. And then looking back, it was clear that the strategies led me exactly where I needed to be.

The cool thing about the Living Free Workshop is that it just teaches strategies. But it doesn’t dictate what you need to do. So for example, it doesn’t push you toward divorce or push you toward remaining married. They’re just safety strategies that women can apply in any situation.

Janet: Anne, thank you for having me on and talking about this. I love the map and just walking through the deliverance process like you did. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is so beneficial for any woman on any stage. If she is still overwhelmed in the fog of abuse, Living Free has made it so simple. It makes it easy, and I wish I had it at the beginning of my marriage.

Anne: Yeah, don’t we all? Again, these strategies work in any stage. Our coaches can help you implement the strategies and apply them. Thank you so much, Janet, for talking with me today.

Janet: Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night.

Have you ever felt like, “my husband hates me” and you had no idea why?

Maybe nothing obvious is happening that you can point to and say, “This proves it.” The truth is: emotionally abusive men don’t have to yell or call you names for you to feel unloved, emotionally unsafe, and completely confused about why your marriage feels so painful.

Take this free emotional abuse test to find out if your husband is emotionally abusive.

Key takeaways from this article:

How “small” patterns over time erode feeling safe and loved.

Doubting your own needs often signals deeper issues.

How covert abuse makes it hard to spot the overall dynamic.

How setting boundaries may highlight a troubling power imbalance.

The right support can help you see the pattern and plan for safety.

5 SIGNS IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND NOT YOUR FAULT

1. EVERY CONCERN I HAD, MEANT I WAS “TOO MUCH”

Every time I ask for help, express emotion, or bring up a concern, he flips it back on me. He said I was, “too much, unable to let anything go, making mountains out of molehills, or just wanting to fight.” He had no empathy for me.

The repeated message was: any natural reactions, needs, or concerns I had, were character flaws. My husband purposefully kept me in a place of doubting my relationship skills, and his manipulation worked. It kept me spinning my wheels always trying to prove to him that I am lovable.

2. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: WHILE I TRIED HARDER, HE SEEMED ANNOYED

Have you ever done something nice for him, and he seems super annoyed? Let’s say you’re like, “Hey, I picked up your dry cleaning on the way home.” And he’s like, “Do you want a parade?” You know, he’s got this like sulky teenager sort of reaction instead of saying, “Oh, thank you so much.”

If he’s doing that, you would definitely get the sense that he hated you.

3. HE WAS NOT KIND, BUT I DIDN’T NOTICE UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE POINTED IT OUT TO ME

My husband wasn’t overtly unkind, but I didn’t notice until somebody else pointed it out. I didn’t think my husband hates me. It was when he ignored me at a party. Instead of being like, “Hey, this is my wife,” he just stood in front of me and didn’t introduce me. I had never thought about how rude that was. I just thought, “Oh, maybe he didn’t think about me.”

But not thinking about someone is actually unkind.

4. WHEN I SET A BOUNDARY, HE FELT ATTACKED

When I quietly stopped doing something I didn’t want to do, he reacted like I had attacked him. And that confused me for years, because I wasn’t yelling. I wasn’t insulting him. I was simply saying no without always saying the word. And I wasn’t doing anything, besides not doing something I didn’t want to do. He did that all the time.

But if he’s only in the relationship to have control over you, “no” feels like rebellion. Because he does not see your boundary as an autonomous person. He sees it as you failing to serve him.

So when he says he loves you but acts like he hates you, sometimes what he hates is not you. He hates that you have your own needs. Your own limits. Your own body.

It’s shocking to realize the level of abuse you’ve experienced. To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

TRANSCRIPT: I FEEL LIKE MY HUSBAND HATES ME

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll be talking about feeling like my husband hates me. We’re gonna call her Allison. Welcome, Allison.

Allison: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. I’m totally fangirling right now, ’cause I have listened to you for so many years. I still can’t believe this is happening. So I did not miss a podcast. I go way, way, way, way, way back. This is so cool for me.

Anne: Oh wow. Well, you’ve been on this journey with me then.

Allison: I know at one time you said you could tell the change in your voice. And I totally could. I found you and it was amazing. Lemme just say it that way. It was the validation.

It’s funny when I try to tell my story now, it’s hard because I am so clearheaded now. And I think it’s so hard to tell how you were then. Because, if I knew now what I knew then. It would be a completely different story. So when I tell people about you, I tell them to go back to the beginning, Because then you can go along with her.

I was married 20 years, I was the textbook, didn’t know anything was really wrong. And I say that now and I think I know a lot of stuff that was wrong.

Anne: Let’s start back at that beginning when you were in the dark, so to speak. Talk about how you felt when you first met him. Did you suspect something was wrong? And then what did you think it was?

I NEVER FELT SAFE OR LOVED

Allison: All this tangible stuff that you can point to, if it was happening. I didn’t know about it. As far as I know, he never cheated on me. I don’t know if he ever used pornography. Didn’t call me names, didn’t yell at me. When we first met, we were in college, we were in our twenties. We were friends, we dated, got engaged and married. Now, I can tell you inside my inner gut, I never really felt safe or loved or anything by him. But I didn’t know that that was wrong.

I’m the kind of person who is optimistic. I’m very hopeful. I can do a lot of things at once. I can solve a lot of problems.

Now, it would be totally different, but I didn’t think anything was wrong. I thought I was super happy, comfortable, and safe in that relationship. In hindsight, I felt like I was always the nag, I was, OCD, I was over the top, I was a pain. I had these extremely high, crazy expectations that nobody could meet. That was just our life, and we had my first son after we’d been married about seven years, and everything just got bad. It was then that I started to think my husband hates me.

And then three years later, we had our daughter, and things got worse. And I thought it was me. I thought I’m just a hard person to be around.

Anne: I don’t know if I’ve said this on the podcast, but of a time we were at a park and he was just being mean to me and I was like, I’m really great. I’m really cool. So it’s the opposite of what you were thinking, it’s me. But maybe sometimes you did think I’m great, why doesn’t he like me?

I TURNED TO MY CHURCH AND THERAPY FOR HELP

Allison: Little voices in my head would be like, why don’t I have these problems with anybody else? Why does nobody else in my life tell me I am difficult to communicate with? I get paid to communicate with people. And I feel like I’m really good at it. But I thought it was me. I was not super religious, grew up Christian, but not overly so.

When I was having a hard time being a mom and didn’t feel like I had any support, I went to church and I just threw myself into the Methodist church, and I would tell you now, I love the Methodist Church dearly in my heart.

They helped me find Jesus, and I love all that. But it made all this so much worse. I needed help because I feel like my husband hates me. I just threw into the submission and be a better Biblical wife, and it took everything already happening and exponentially made it worse.

Anne: Back then when you thought it was you, did you go to therapy? Did you try to go to a couple therapy with him? Can you talk about the therapeutic experience?

Allison: Yes, so the first time we went to therapy, we’d probably been married six years. It was very much, something is wrong, and I don’t know what kind of thing. I found myself more attracted to other people. I was like, why do I like these other men? Or I’d rather be with friends more than him.

Again, I just thought, what’s wrong with me? He’s funny, he is nice, he has a good job, and he treats me well.

I TRIED EVERYTHING AND STILL, MY HUSBAND HATES ME

Allison: So the first time we went to therapy, that was the premise and the therapist, it was the date night, go on more date nights, all this typical stuff. I just tried harder. Thought maybe we should have a baby. Maybe that’ll help. Maybe I should quit work, maybe that’ll help. I tried to be a better wife.

And I threw myself into all The Power of a Praying Wife books. And how can I be a better wife? ‘Cause if I am better. Then he will give me some sort of safety or love that I’m craving.

Anne: You mentioned he was nice to you. He is a good guy. Why don’t I wanna spend time with him? Was he actually nice to you?

Allison: Actually not nice, not nice or kind. He was none of that, but I couldn’t see it. I didn’t think my husband hates me. So again, in hindsight now, he was always very grumpy. He was mean to my friends. Definitely mean to my family. Of course, none of them said anything either.

20 years later, I was like, why didn’t you say anything to me? And they said, “You seemed okay, so we didn’t feel like it was our place.”

Anne: What did they think of him from their point of view?

Allison: Close friends and family, people who really knew me, thought he was a jerk. Why does she like this person? But they just trusted me. They said, “Well, she’s a smart person, he must treat her great at home.” He was mean to waiters, had road rage. He was that kind of person, who was angry all the time.

WORKING FULL TIME AND CARRYING EVERYTHING AT HOME

Allison: That all elevated when we had kids. I think most people questioned me. What is she seeing in him? That made me question myself even more. Everything I tried to do, therapy, church, and advice from people who loved me, put it more onto me.

So the first time I went to therapy, just nothing. I felt this heavy weight. Now I have to work full-time and take care of everything in the house, take care of the yard and the cars, and plan all our date nights and stuff so that he will be nice to me. It just put even more onto me. Our pattern was complaining or criticizing, or asking for help, or having any emotion. And then him saying, “Well that’s you. You’re too much, you’re overboard. You can never let anything go. You just wanna fight.”

It was, gaslighting at its extreme. And I took it, I don’t think it’s ’cause I’m stupid or a doormat. I think I took it cause I just thought I could fix it.

Anne: Also, strangely, it shows what a good person you are. You weren’t super offended. You were like, “Oh, maybe that is true. Maybe I can improve.” You didn’t feel like my husband hates me.

Allison: I’ve always liked self-improvement. I think my dad gave me The Seven Habits when I was in high school school. I’ve always been the kind of person who thrives on how I can become a better person. That’s always been me.

And so, I just fit the mold. I always say now, “What a great person to be married to.” He was married to somebody who was going to keep trying.

ABUSERS SEEM TO FIT THE SAME MOLD

Anne: I wouldn’t say you fit the mold. And this is why, it’s really weird. The abusers seem to fit the mold. ‘Cause they all tend to have the same patterns, even if they look a little bit different. But victims act totally different. Some of them, I didn’t do this, but some shut down and become more quiet.

Some become louder. And some try self-improvement, some don’t. It’s really interesting that we react in all different kinds of ways, but the fact that they lie, and then they keep lying, and they don’t stop lying, is what makes them pretty much all similar. It depends on how they lie.

Allison: Fast forward 20 years later. ‘Cause it was really just 20 years of the same. We found ourselves in therapy a couple more times between this and that point. At first, I thought something was maybe wrong with my son. He needs to go to therapy.

Is he on the spectrum? What is wrong? Why is family fighting all the time? Why can’t we sit down to a meal without fighting? And why are we always fighting in the car? Why do we not fight when I go out with my friends and their kids? And it was just, what is wrong here? And the therapist that time. I think he saw it. I really do, this person saw it. He told my ex, if you wanna see changes in the behavior of your son, you’ll need to treat your wife the way you want your son to treat her.

You can’t yell at your son for leaving stuff around the house, and not help out at home. If you are not doing those things.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HE WAS LAZY TO AN EXTREME

Allison: It was very elementary, and very gentle. And my ex is like, we’re never gonna see him again. That therapist is terrible. He’s trying to blame it all on me. It just wasn’t worth the fight, that was time number two.

Anne: During this time, did you ever find pornography or affairs or sexting or anything like that?

Allison: I didn’t, to this day, I still don’t know. They’re all the same, it would not surprise me.

Anne: Yeah, there are so many women who are like, I don’t know. And then later they find out or never find out. Even though they feel like my husband hates me. But it wouldn’t surprise me either, with what you’re saying.

Allison: And honestly, I’m at the point where it doesn’t matter either way. I think I lived a very long time in the, I need something to prove that he’s a bad person for me to justify how I feel.

All I could say tangibly is that he was lazy to an extreme. He would never help with anything. He’s set his alarm to go off at four o’clock in the morning, and it would go off and wake everybody up. But then wouldn’t get outta bed till eight o’clock in the morning, constantly for years. We had two kids, and I’m putting ’em to bed at night. I’d say, can you do the dishes so that I can just come downstairs and watch TV after I put the kids to bed? I come downstairs, he’s asleep. The dishes aren’t done. And next morning, I would say, “I thought you were gonna do the dishes, that upset me.”

IT WAS EASIER TO DISASSOCIATE FROM THE PATTERNS

Allison: It was just, “Why can you not let anything go? You make a mountain out of a mole hill. You just wanna fight all the time.”

I didn’t see those as patterns. It was so covert. Everything turned back onto me and I just accepted it. ‘Cause I think it felt like I had a little bit of control. If I could accept that it was me, maybe I could fix it.

Anne: Yeah, I mean that’s the hope, we want to fix it.

Allison: We want to fix it.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: When he would say things like, “You just wanna fight. You want to blow this up?”

Now I look back at those conversations, and I wish I could go back in time, because it’s the last thing I wanted. But instead of me being that clear and saying, “No, I don’t wanna fight.” I would say, “I’m so sorry I did this. I’m so sorry I brought this up.”

Anne: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Allison: It just got easier to disassociate from it and try to do my own thing, than to try to fix it, because every fight ended with me. Not just fight, every conversation ended with it was my fault. And so it just got easier to never have a conversation or never bring up a concern, ’cause it was just gonna be my fault anyway.

I LOST MYSELF COMPLETELY

Allison: Then I lived for several years like that, and that’s where I just lost myself completely.

One day my sister said, “Something’s not right”. Again, it was all very gentle, nothing blew up. Something just doesn’t seem right. You’ve been married for 20 years, having the same fight for 20 years.” She had been married a little over 10. And she’s like, “We resolve problems. You’ve never resolved a problem, and that’s not normal.”

I let this little pin prick into my head that maybe this isn’t normal and maybe it’s not me. That was it. It was very gentle. That’s when I went back to that same therapist for about eight years before and sat on his couch, and I was like, “Something’s not right. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I just don’t wanna do anything.”

And I’m a happy person. I’m an extrovert. I just wasn’t myself. He had already seen it eight years before. Very gently he said, “Here’s a book called Boundaries using them in marriage. Maybe you should read this.”

And so I read it and I was like, oh, yay, this is what’s wrong. We’re gonna fix it. He’s gonna read the book and realize that, oh, and we’re gonna fix it. And then that’s when the bottom dropped out. Because when I switched my tactic to, maybe it’s not all me, maybe it’s only 99% me, but 1% you, he lost it. And that’s when things escalated and it started becoming a little bit more overt.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I FOUND BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY

Allison: That’s right about when I Googled, “Why am I so unhappy in my marriage if nothing is wrong?” Something like that. I think covert abuse popped up and I was like, I wonder what that means. Gaslighting popped up.

That’s when I found BTR, I started listening to your podcast. This is what’s happening. Oh my gosh. I was still hopeful it could fix it, because now I knew what it was. I lived like that for about nine months. And then one day it was like, no, I still very gently went to him and said, “You need to get outta the house. And if you ever decide to admit that maybe some of this could be you and you wanna talk, then come back and talk to me. But in the meantime, I’m done.” We had a big blow up.

Then family court drama and the kids and all that. I saw who he really was, ’cause then it all came out. He went from literally one week of, “You’re the love of my life. Please don’t leave. We can work this out. I’ll do anything. I will do anything to save this.”

It went from that to, “I want to destroy you. I will do anything to destroy you, destroy your family, destroy your business and take your children.” And it was that fast. Then I spent a few years trying to figure all that out. I faced the painful truth, my husband hates me.

Anne: That’s what frustrates me about the domestic abuse services. I didn’t need the domestic violence shelter. But help with navigating the emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse. They’re all about divorce, and if you don’t get divorced, something’s wrong with you.

THEY WANT TO SCARE YOU, SO THEY CAN CONTROL YOU

Anne: They look at you like you’re crazy if you don’t wanna get divorced. And then the second problem is they think divorce is the solution.

Allison: Yes, it’s the start of the journey.

Anne: Not the solution.

Allison: No, that’s where you were invaluable. I’m telling you. So at this point, we had Our Family Wizard, and my sister had the password, and she would scrub through them. She’d say, this is the only thing you need to answer.

I was terrified to block his number. I was terrified to not answer the phone if he called. Because I just thought, I have to answer the phone because if I don’t, he’s gonna say I’m not answering the phone, and then I’m not being collaborative, and then he’s gonna use that with the lawyer. That was the scariest part, that time right then.

Anne: The thing I wanna tell women listening is, yeah, you’re scared and you’re scared for good reason because they’re scary, but they want to scare you. They’re scaring you on purpose, so that you’ll do what they want. It’s a form of coercive control.

Allison: He was always able to gaslight me some way, so the pattern’s the same, it’s just that whatever they’re doing to scare you.

Anne: When the gaslighting stopped working, that’s when he started using the other thing. And then when the court’s involved, the court becomes like an extension of his.

A THREE YEAR COURT BATTLE

Allison: Yeah, and my kids by then were older, I do thank God every day they weren’t younger. My heart breaks for women with young kids in this system because, this was really hard on my kids and sometimes I feel like we barely got out alive.

I feel like we were bloody and bruised, it was so hard on all of us. But they were older, I was always honest with them. You’re given all kinds of weird advice, don’t ever disparage him.

I was always very gentle about it. Your dad thinks differently than I think, but you can have your own relationship with him. He accused me of alienation, and we had the whole thing and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and whatever.

But they were older. And that three year court battle ended with them talking to the judge alone. And she set us free. She said, “The final ruling that came down was that the children should spend half their time with their father. You worry about them watching inappropriate media. And it literally said something like, it’s not the mother’s sole responsibility to make that happen. That’s all it said. And so I never heard from him, he fell off the face of the earth.

Anne: Isn’t that crazy? He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting you for the kids, and then once it ends, nothing. There’s a section of that in my workshop that you’d appreciate that talks about that and the strategy to use because of this very reason. It is crazy that they will fight and fight and fight.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HIS BEHAVIOR VALIDATED THE TRUTH

Anne: In my case, I was trying to have custody remain the same. And he was getting more, so I was fighting that in court, and he won basically. I ended up stopping the suit and just filing out of court. But a year later, he completely was like, yeah, you can have them full time all the time. I’m like, why did you just spend $50,000 fighting me in court when you didn’t want the kids? It’s never about the kids. It showed that my husband hates me and wants me punished.

Allison: And you know in a way all that stuff was very validating to me.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: It’s hard now. I can’t get back in my brain where I was then. But I was very confused. I sound now like I was very sure of myself. I was not always sure of myself. There were lots of times where I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I’m talking to a guardian ad litem and we’ve got all these different therapists. I was trying to do the right thing, but I wasn’t always sure I was doing the right thing.

Now in hindsight, his terribleness is very validating. And now my kids are doing fine. They will have issues that they will have to deal with the rest of their lives, and they will deal with it. But for the most part, they are doing okay.

Anne: And I think kids do way better when they know it’s not them. When they know, I’m lovable, my dad’s incapable of loving people. That has nothing to do with me.

YOU’LL FIND YOU’RE NOT ALONE

Allison: Right, and you can have a relationship with a dad who’s a jerk. That’s fine, they just had to learn their own boundaries. My one son is almost 21 now and my daughter’s 17. So they can do whatever they want with this, and we’ll see. I think the part that’s so hard now to tell people is when they’re in that super confused state.

‘Cause I just want them to jump to here. I know you feel like you’re gonna die, and I know you feel like you can’t go on. And I promise you, you can. The women in this community are awesome. They are rock stars. I mean, these are women who never made a dime and are now supporting themselves off strange part-time side hustles and just amazing.

Anne: I know. It’s so hard, so in my workshop that I designed for women in that specific situation. So they could see what was happening.

Allison: It’s so critical. It’s so good.

Like literally a hundred percent sure that these would help people. You have to be clear enough in your head to believe it and trust it. And I think that’s really hard, especially when you’re in that initial stage. You’re given all this advice, and you’re just bombarded by all these people.

Just listen to some podcasts, read some books, like Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You’ll find that you’re not alone. And it’s so validating. Listen to the survivors and the people who now can be like, I did it. My husband hates me and I survived.

Anne: Yeah.

MAKING SENSE OF IT ALL THROUGH BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY

Allison: I just feel like we went through like a battle, but we’re still here.

Anne: Yeah, so for those women who are listening and thinking like, okay, should I trust Anne? I’m not saying blindly, but the women who have shared their stories, like Allison. Should I trust the workshop or should I continue to go to couple therapy? And I’m not even like quit couple therapy. Just do the BTR Workshop and see if you feel differently afterwards. It’s so hard to trust someone, especially like a “podcast” rather than a therapist, your church or your family.

Allison: I’ll tell you from my experience. When I would listen to you. What you were saying made sense. Where sometimes what a therapist told me, I had to almost figure out how to make it make sense, right?

Everything you said made sense. I didn’t have to reach. And you sounded a lot, like how I felt. So my problem is, it’s hard for me to put into words or writing. So when I hear somebody who can articulate how I feel, that feels good. That person sounds like how I feel. And then when your guests come on, I’ve listened to so many of ’em. I usually walk my dog, listen to the podcast, and walk around my neighborhood.

I’m always like, yes, that’s it. And you’ll hear the same things. When people say, and then he called me a name and he yelled at me. Sometimes you start, “Oh, is my situation really as bad?” You start these comparisons.




MY HUSBAND HATES ME: TAKING INFORMATION TO MY THERAPIST

Allison: But it’s more that you could just relate to them. I think that’s what I would say. If you’re talking to your pastor or therapist, it feels like a stretch. But if you hear somebody you feel you can relate to, you can probably trust them.

Anne: It’s been interesting. A few women have said, “I listened to your podcast. It was amazing. Then I took your information to my therapist, so that I could train my therapist in what you were saying, so that she could help me or he could help me. And I’m like, you realize you don’t have to train our coaches in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions.

We already know how to do this. So if you’re feeling like, oh, this is so good. I’m gonna take this information to my therapist. We’re here, you don’t have to train us. We already know this. We can help you now, instead of having you teach your therapist what we’re saying.

Also, they won’t actually get it. They’ll maybe act like they do because they would be doing it if they got it.

Allison: It’s hard to trust therapists, pastors. It’s very hard for me now. I was doing the same thing. I would try to give books to the people helpers in my life, “Listen to this.”

And they almost wanna fight it. Who is this person? Or why? I think now, if I’m having to work so hard to get something, there’s something wrong there. Maybe my husband hates me.

Anne: We’re here to help you now. You don’t have to train us. We can help you immediately.

YOU REALLY NEED AN ADVOCATE

Allison: What’s really helping you would be my question. Is it really helping you?

Learning all this stuff from people who understand. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know if I would’ve been strong enough to fight with the therapist, the guardian at litem, the pastor, the family who didn’t believe.

I did need some backup, but I hate that now. And what I would tell people now is, “It’s your gut. If your gut tells you this person sounds trustworthy, and this person can articulate how you feel, and they can articulate what’s actually going on in your life. Then that’s the person you can trust.”

Anne: I don’t think anyone can do it alone. So I don’t think you need to feel bad about being like, man, I couldn’t go against the therapist or the pastor and should have been able to do it. I don’t think anybody can. You really do need an advocate or somebody who validates you, because otherwise you legit think you’re going crazy when you realize my husband hates me..

Allison: Yes, for sure. That’s the mind control. I also got very into stories about people who left cults. I would read. I’d get this advice from the bad therapists, the bad pastors, and the bad books.

And I couldn’t relate to it. Then I’d watch a documentary about somebody who left Scientology and I was like, oh my gosh, I get her. And it was weird to me. I was like, why can I relate with that person who has nothing in common with me, and I can’t relate to this person at my own church who’s trying to help me?

AN UNDERSTANDING COMMUNITY EXPONENTIALLY HELPS HEALING

Allison: That seemed strange to me. Instead, I just trusted it a little bit, and I started doing a little more research, and I thought you were in that. And that’s why I just fully believe these relationships are a little cult of one, and it’s like leaving a cult. Because all that gaslighting, especially if it’s covert, that makes that so much harder. So they need advocates.

Anne: I like that, “cult of one.” Yeah, you need a foundation of truth somewhere. Because otherwise it just feels like you’re floating in space with nothing to hold onto. It’s very, very difficult.

Allison: I put some stuff on Facebook, probably a little more real than I should have. Then I’d have somebody reach out to me, and I’d get a Facebook message from somebody, oh what you just posted? Then I’d say, “Hey, do you wanna meet?”

A friend who knows a friend who knows a friend. And what we saw was that it was so much easier for me to see it in somebody else. She’d send me conversations or recordings of their conversations or texts. And I would be like, “Oh this is what he is doing, this is what he’s doing.” It was so clear to me that my husband hates me.

And then we started realizing you start from the person who needs a lot of help, then you’re now suddenly the person helping somebody here. So that was another thing that I think your community, it exponentially helps that healing.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: VALIDATION IN THE BEGINNING IS CRITICAL

Anne: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. We call them Chucks at BTR.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: So with your Chuck, you know all these other things about him. It’s hard to sort through it, but other people from the outside are just looking at the facts.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: They haven’t had the late night conversations with him where he tells you he’s totally in love with you or that he was so hurt as a child.

Allison: Sorry, and he won’t do it again.

Anne: Yeah, they haven’t had any of that, and so they can look at the actions, the behaviors, and what’s going on, and it’s very clear. But it’s foggy in the middle, when my husband hates me.

Allison: That was a mean thing to say.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: I’m intrigued by the use of AI in all this now. I have our old emails I had with him towards the end, these things that will analyze them for you. It is fascinating.

But anything validating in that beginning is also so critical. I think the hardest was, oh yeah, this seems so clear. And it felt like lightning bolts coming at me. I woke up and it was so clear.

And then, you go through the day or the next day and it’s all mush again. Where did that clarity go, where did that validation go? The community can give you that over and over and over.

WHEN THE PAST TRAUMA STARTS TO FADE

Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly it. Because without that daily check-in with reality, where someone’s validating reality. It does make it hard to hold onto.

Allison: Yes.

Anne: I’m so glad we’ve gone down that same path. We’ve had the same sort of experiences-ish. And now we’re both safe and delivered. I always use that word delivered.

Allison: Oh I use that word all the time. I loved when you were doing that part. And I loved when you were praying for deliverance for him. I was doing the same thing.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: That was a fun phase.

Anne: I’ve done a couple of interviews lately with women. I agree with them in this moment. They’ve said things like, “Trauma, it always stays in your body. You’re never gonna forget, he wants me to forget, but how can I forget feeling like my husband hates me?”

That kind of thing. And I 100% agree, because when I was there, that’s how I felt. And now, I forget sometimes. It’s weird ’cause I’m not living with it. I’m not experiencing his trauma anymore. And once you’re completely safe and delivered, I wouldn’t say I would ever forget. Sometimes when people tell stories, it takes me back there.

Today I remembered when I was in the park. I can go back there.

I recently finished my book and that has been interesting because I detail some of the things that happened. Evidence that my husband hates me. And they’re really bad. I can’t remember exactly how many, but I think it was seven therapists and five or six bishops that I went through.

MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I STILL GET ANGRY SOMETIMES

Allison: That’s very similar to me, same kind of numbers.

Anne: So at least just on my day-to-day living, I don’t think about it. This is my job, so I think about it when I’m talking to people, but going about my day, no. I don’t constantly think my husband hates me.

Allison: I had the one good therapist. I went through years and did EMDR therapy, and I did it a lot. One time I sat down with him and he said, “Someday, you’re gonna be sitting on a beach somewhere, and this is gonna be gone. It will not be in your head.” I’m holding onto that. It’s not quite there. I still get angry sometimes, ’cause stuff still happens.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: Something will happen with the kids, and I have to communicate. It’s very rare, we don’t communicate much, but stuff still happens, and I can still get very angry.

So the anger is definitely still there. I feel like he wasted all those years of my life. But then just like you, I’m like, I would’ve never been this person I am now, which is doing all these other wonderful things. I can rationalize that in my head.

The one part I can’t get over yet. And so this would be interesting to hear you talk to other people about it. ‘Cause I want to get over it, I want him to say he’s sorry. I just crave it. I don’t ever wanna see him again. It wasn’t all you,

Anne: For him to suddenly be like, you know what? I lied to your face. It was 100% me. ‘Cause that’s what he would have to say.

Allison: Exactly, yeah.

HE’S STILL BLOCKED ON MY PHONE

Allison: Someday, even that’s gonna go away and that will be great. When I just don’t even care anymore.

That’s the only thing that hangs on there every once in a while. I’ve had so many other people tell me it’s not you. And I don’t know why I care. I just wish that would go away.

Anne: That makes total sense.

Allison: It’s most likely never gonna happen. It might just fade into where he just disappears completely from my thoughts.

Anne: My situation right now with my Chuck, I think he wants me to like him. Not sexually or anything, but I’ll say something, and he’ll be so friendly and happy about it. Because I use the strategies now,

I think he thinks everything’s fine. And when I say that, I know that he is still the person he was. He is lying still, it’s just that now I’m apathetic about it and don’t care about engaging with him. But I think he actually thinks, oh, things are good now. Even though he still does things that prove my husband hates me.

The fact that he’s still blocked on my phone, the fact that I will never talk to him except for through Our Family Wizard, the fact that I don’t believe a word he says, there’s all these things. I wasn’t like that until I got delivered, and since I got delivered, maybe I’ll say something to him like, oh, what a nice day. But that’s it. At that point, I’m out of there. If we talked for longer than 30 seconds or maybe 10 seconds, that the dagger would definitely come out.

JUST DO THE NEXT “RIGHT” THING

Anne: And his wife, I think at this point, likes me a lot more than she likes him. It’s weird, because over text, she’s so friendly. She always asks me very politely. If I say no, she’s like, no problem. She’s amazing. I am so grateful for her. She’s great.

But in person, when I see her, she’s got that look on her face, like I’m in a bad situation. I don’t know what to do. I wonder if she’s thinking my husband hates me. And I have no idea if she knows about the podcast or not, but I think, oh man, if you listened, think about how much you related to me. Can you imagine my Chuck’s wife listening and being like, this is my life literally. That would be crazy.

I don’t know if that’ll ever happen. I’ve been lucky, and my kids have been lucky. She’s a good person. So my ex had good taste. I’ll say that about him.

Allison: He picked you.

Anne: Yeah, anyway, I don’t know what will happen with that. Sometimes I fantasize for two seconds about her showing up on my door.

Allison: I listened to your podcast, I need your help. That would be very validating as well.

Anne: Yeah, this is specifically for you.

Allison: Yes.

If any of this resonates with you. If you think something is wrong, and you can’t put your finger on it. Trust that it doesn’t mean you’re over emotional or over sensitive. That’s reality, that’s God telling you, trust it, and then just do the next thing. That was the most helpful advice, just do the next thing, right?

HELPING WOMEN FIND THE TRUTH THEY NEED

Allison: So if you listened to the first one, your first podcast you’ve ever listened to, scroll back and find one where maybe the title sounds like something that you can relate to and listen to that one.

It starts from a tiny pinprick of reality, truth, and light. In the end, what happens is like that pin prick of light becomes so much. And everybody gets there.

Anne: Yeah.

Allison: I don’t know one person that hasn’t got there. They’ve all got there in their own ways and their own time.

Anne: Yeah, exactly.

Allison: Everybody gets there. Because it’s real, because this is what’s happening. You are not a bad person, and he’s a jerk. I wouldn’t trade it. I wouldn’t go back and not do this, ’cause I wouldn’t be who I am and able to see things the way I see, that’s a unique way.

Anne: Thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us today. Sharing stories helps women who might be thinking my husband hates me.

Allison: I love it. And I’m gonna keep listening. I listen every week.

Anne: Awesome, thank you.

Allison: Thank you so much.

If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying.

If it’s hard to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, look for these 5 things. And keep reading as I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce.

1. DOES HIS APOLOGY FOCUS ON ONE SMALL MOMENT, WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE?

My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues.

If your husband thinks an apology for one incident is sufficient to repair the damage done by his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. He’s putting a bandaid on one of a thousand cuts and expecting that to heal all of the other wounds.

2. IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY?

 I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize?

Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away.

3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR?

 My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing?

Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of emotional abuse and infidelity, no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth.

4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILE?

This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine.

Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive and maintain distance.

5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY?

 My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today.

If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity.

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT’S GENUINE?

Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you.

If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our Group Session Schedule.

It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy.

ESCALATING ABUSE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AND TRIES TO MAKE RESTITUTION

Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking.

Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that.

Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating.

He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry.

THE TURNING POINT: LEGOLAND INCIDENT

Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children.

I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore.

The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less.

I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response.

I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible.

RESTITUTION VS. FORGIVENESS WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES

Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness.

My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse.

He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness.

And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead.

Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking.

It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive.

THE REALITY OF SEPARATION FROM EVIL

Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home.

One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there.

Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband.

ANALOGIES TO UNDERSTAND ABUSE

Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that.

I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on?

I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use.

The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZED: ANALYZING IT’S MEANING

Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us.

There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part.




If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes.

Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015.

YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES WITH A TOKEN GESTURE

Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused.

I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity.

So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie.

So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, OBSERVE HIS CHARACTER

Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering if an emotionally abusive husband will change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards.

What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you.

Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing.

He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it?

WHAT ARE PERFORMATIVE APOLOGIES

Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last.

This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything. Even though my ex husband apologized, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right?

It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final.

He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t admit he’d been counter parenting or talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.

So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AS A WEAPON

Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it.

One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.”

So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing.

Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation.

They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry.

THE TRUE NATURE OF AN ABUSIVE CHARACTER

Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character.

We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past.

I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it.

Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat.

WHAT TRUE REPENTANCE LOOKS LIKE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES

Anne: He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because he’s apologizing. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning.

Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. That kind of restoration doesn’t happen quickly. It takes years—sometimes decades. It also answers a question many women are quietly asking: how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse? Healing and rebuilding trust follow that same timeline. They can’t be rushed, and they can’t be created with words alone.

That’s what real restitution would look like.

When I received that letter, I felt a sense of peace. I knew I was doing the right thing.

THE ALTERNATIVE REALITY OF THE ABUSER

Anne: I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up.

I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet.

And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like.

MOVING FORWARD DESPITE INSINCERE APOLOGIES FROM MY HUSBAND

Anne: I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution.

It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing.

In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else?

I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

When counseling for cheating treats a husband’s betrayal as a marriage issue instead of focusing on his pattern of lying, it can be a soul crushing realization for his wife. Women who’ve been betrayed by their husbands need support that personally understands this truth, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups.

Here are five things a therapist or counselor may ask you to do, that you’re probably already doing.

5 THINGS A THERAPIST MIGHT SUGGEST IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING, THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY ALREADY DOING

1. YOU SHOULD BE MORE SELF-REFLECTIVE

Women who enter into counseling for cheating after discovery of their husband’s betrayal, often say that they’ve spent years wrestling with questions about their own expectations or behaviors in the marriage. Many of them have already been asking if they were “too critical or sensitive,” or how they could have “communicated better.”

Husbands who have a pattern of manipulation and lying often use their wife’s willingness to look at her own “faults” as a way to distract her and the therapist from seeing the truth.

2. YOUR MARRIAGE CAN’T HEAL IF YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THE PAST

Betrayed wives often want to know more details about their husband’s betrayal or his patterns of behavior after they’ve discovered he has been lying to them and living a double life. It’s a natural part of the healing process. What’s not natural or healthy is for a counselor or a husband to tell a betrayed partner that she needs to “put it in the past” in order for the relationship to move forward.

Men who have lived double lives have already benefitted from their wife’s integrity and her decision to give him the benefit of the doubt over and over again. If he wants to move forward in a healed relationship, he should take responsibility for his deception and be willing to answer questions.

3. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS “TOGETHER”

Many wives are already the solution-focused, repair department of the family.

When there is confusion, they look for a book, a podcast, or a therapist that might help them understand what’s really happening and how to fix it. They’ll schedule the date nights, pray the prayers, make the apologies, and have the conversations with a softer approach.

They’ll try to make their home peaceful and emotionally safe for everyone.

But, if their husband is lying about cheating, using inappropriate media, emotional affairs, or financial betrayal, even in therapy, then none of the above solutions is going to solve the real problem. His lying.

4. COUNSELING FOR CHEATING SUGGESTS YOU RE-COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE

Most wives lean in and work hard to keep their families together after discovering their husband’s betrayal.

But trying harder won’t cure his entitlement. Being more available and more patient won’t cure his dishonesty. Offering more love does not cure his emotional or spiritual abuse.

A wife can pour herself into the marriage until there is almost nothing left of her, and still not fix his motivations for hiding the truth.

5. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

When things feel off in their marriage most women will ask questions or speak up about odd late nights, mood shifts, secrecy, intimacy problems, and the strange feeling in their gut. But their husbands have used these concerns as another opportunity to gaslight, blame-shift, and undermine her instincts and reality.

When a counselor suggests that the betrayed partner should ask more direct questions they’re just adding more pressure on her to mine for truth. The burden of truth and change should rest on the shoulders of the betrayer.

To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse test.

Key Points From this episode:

How Marriage Counseling After Betrayal Misses the Real Issue

How His Lying Undermines Your Confidence and Emotional Safety

Couple Therapy is for People Who Tell The Truth, Not Liars

Moving on After Betrayal is Not as Simple as People Think

Is Online Betrayal Actually Cheating?

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MAKES HIS CHEATING “OUR PROBLEM”

Anne: I have Hannah, a member of our community on today’s episode. Welcome, Hannah.

Hannah: Hi Anne. How are you?

Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don’t we start with your story.

Hannah: Yeah, I am about a year out from finding everything out that changed my life forever. I was married for about 12 years. We had five kids. I had known him most of my life. We were best friends. We’re Christian. I was very active in our church community, and even in high school I was involved in youth work, and I was a huge anti-porn advocate. My husband knew all this about me. We talked about this kind of thing nearly daily, as we’re also raising kids, just like how we protect them from the world.

We prayed every day together, and then one day he decided to drop the bomb on me, that he had been lying to me since before we were married, that he had been watching porn, and that he had also had a four year affair with a colleague. So he decided to come clean to me.

I was completely blindsided. Over the last year, I’ve been realizing the subtle ways, like he was a very good liar, and I do feel like he had this complete double life. I was really grateful to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because it was the only resource I found online that didn’t make me want to throw my computer or phone across the room. Because everything was very much just talking about my part in it, which to me felt so wrong.

WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MISSES EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Hannah: I knew I wasn’t perfect, what human being is? I knew that throughout our whole marriage, I had been self-reflecting. I had been not keeping score. Anytime we had any kind of conflict, I was all about finding solutions. I was always leaning into our marriage and trying harder. Also when it came to the betrayal, the pornography use.

A lot of resources say maybe you didn’t ask, or maybe you were naive. I had asked all the questions. We had all the conversations. I had been checking in all these things, and it was just a lie every time with counseling for cheating.

So to be met with what was your part in it? Or anything like that made me angry right from the start. And I just knew that this isn’t something that I contributed to somehow. And at that, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, that’s definitely how you frame things. This is abuse. Abuse is one sided. That’s my story in a nutshell. It has been an awful year, and I still most days can’t believe this is my life.

That I had this husband, who I thought we were soulmates, best friends. I thought I knew him so well. I’ve been coming to this realization that I could have just gone down to the nearest bar and been like, You sir, you’re attractive. Let’s go get married. And it would’ve been the same outcome. Because I did all the things. We talked about this stuff constantly. I think people think, he was doing this thing and it’s not a big deal.

FINDING OUT HE HAD BEEN LYING THE WHOLE TIME

Hannah: Like it was his private life that he kept private. No, you don’t understand the amount of lies, blatant lies, subtle lies, lies of omission, but also the things that we would do together. Like, we sit down to watch a movie. We weren’t like the average couple who’s just oh, put on HBO. We don’t watch HBO, we look up every movie before we watch it, because we’re protecting our marriage, protecting our family. From all the trash out there. Our kids have minimal screen time, they’re not on devices, so that’s exactly the type of thing we’re trying to protect them from.

So for him to come out and be like, “Oh yeah, by the way, for our entire marriage, I’ve been watching pornography, and I also had a girlfriend for a huge chunk of our marriage.”

Anne: Why now? He’s been lying to you the whole time. I’m sure that’s crossed your mind.

Hannah: Oh, it has. I can tell you what he says versus what I think.

Anne: Probably a lie, right? Since he is lied about everything else.

Hannah: A very close friend of mine called me up and told me that she had discovered that her husband had been watching pornography.

So I was very upset and obviously like always I went to my husband. And the thing that gets me about that is, it’s not the first time this has happened. I would read some horrible story on the internet, in the communities that I was in. And I’d go to my husband and be like, oh, this poor woman, she just found out she has cervical cancer, ‘Cause her husband cheated on her.

I WANTED TO LEAVE, BUT COULDN’T

Hannah: These types of stories. So that alone isn’t enough, because it’s not like it was the first time, but it was someone very close to me. And also close to him.

Anne: I wonder if, because it was someone really close to you. He thought, well, maybe this is the time to tell her because this other person did it.

Hannah: So I was like talking to him every evening when he came home from work about this couple. My heart was breaking for them. I was in constant contact with my friend, checking with her, wanting to spend time with her. So I was actually planning to go away that weekend to spend the weekend with her. And then he dropped the bomb on me before I left.

Anne: Maybe it was to stop you from going.

Hannah: It could have been.

Anne: Because, these liars don’t think too much about long-term consequences, or counseling for cheating.

Hannah: Looking back, something that haunts me a lot is the fact that in those weeks leading up. He asked me, “What would you do if?”

I was obviously caught off guard. I mean, excuse me? Are you trying to tell me something? Like, why would you say that? I told him, “I would pack up the kids, and I would go to my mother’s, and you would maybe never see us again.”

I didn’t mince words. Funny story, my reaction, I was paralyzed. I couldn’t pack up any kids. I was trashed, laying on the floor, not eating or sleeping, not able to drive a car. In my mind, I wanted to leave, but physically could not.

WHEN HE USES THE TRUTH TO MANIPULATE YOU

Anne: I had that same thing where I told my husband that. And then found out I couldn’t do it. I’ve come to believe now. This is 10 years post-divorce, and failed counseling for cheating, that he wanted me to do that. He was like, “Okay, I’m gonna tell her and then she’ll leave.” And because I didn’t. Then, at least in my situation, he was like, “Oh, shoot, now I have to act like I am repenting.” Because he didn’t know what to do when I didn’t do the thing he wanted me to do. Because the same thing, he could have told me a million other times, why did he tell me right then?

Hannah: There were so many moments when I asked him explicitly. Have you done this? Would you do this? Where I asked to check his phone. I felt like a terrible person. I have this amazing, good, trustworthy husband, and I’m being this paranoid, crazy person. And him being like, sure, of course. But obviously sweating bullets, because he knew that there was a possibility that something could happen.

So when he did tell me, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t sleep, but the next morning I made him drive me to my sister’s house. I said we’re leaving right now. I had all these other health issues at the time that I physically can’t drive.

So I think that in his mind he was so deluded, he still thought it was somehow going to be okay. But for me, it was like the whole unraveling of everything.

Like any marriage, we’d had our struggles and then to find out that this was going on underneath it all the whole time, for me it was very much a, what’s left?

I SAW THE SIGNS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE

Hannah: The only thing I was clinging to in this marriage was that you’re this good, faithful, loyal man who’s trustworthy and honest. And turns out you weren’t even that. And I’ve been making all these excuses. He’s tired, he works so hard. The honeymoon phase is over. This is just marriage. So we’re not crazy in love anymore, but we deeply love each other. That’s what I was thinking. And meanwhile, these were all symptoms that he actually didn’t care.

Anne: Oh, that’s so heartbreaking. Before you found out, had you been to couple therapy, had you done marriage intensives or counseling for cheating?

Hannah: There were moments in our marriage where I checked in with him. “I feel like we’re having a lot of petty fights. Are we okay? I feel like you’re ignoring me a lot, like what’s going on?” There were times when I felt like it was getting to the point that, okay, I think we need counseling for cheating.

And I said that to him, and I asked for it, and his reaction was, no, absolutely not. That didn’t surprise me, just because I feel like that’s the way both of us were raised. Our parents think it’s good for someone else, but they’re not gonna do it. “We can get through this. We don’t need some professional meddling in our lives.” Then it would be good for a while, now that I’ve reflected on all these years. I can see it more clearly that he would avoid me and treat me poorly.

Then if I started to question it, he would love bomb me and make it okay. He would bring me flowers or he would say something to make it feel all better.

HOW HE BENEFITTED FROM MY WORK ON THE MARRIAGE

Hannah: I was like relationship low maintenance. I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming all the time. He just had to come home and tell me he loved me and that everything was good, and I just believed him. I would let it go. I thought we went on dates and did things to invest in our marriage, but now that I look back, I planned it, or I nagged you to plan it. And it never was like, “You’re planning these things for me, or for us.”

We actually went to marriage retreats to reconnect. But now looking back at that, it’s just cements the betrayal even more. We’re sitting there talking all day about our relationship. And what we can do differently and how we can improve. And you’re just sitting on all this information. These are all the reasons you’re passive aggressive, angry, a little bit volatile, all these things. That explains a lot. I would feel that way too if I was hiding this entire secret life from you. I would be anxious and irritable.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Hannah: We never did any kind of counseling for cheating. I thought it was communication. I think I am a terrible communicator. And I think you need to work on your communication too. I just leaned in, I read books, did different things. The typical marriage advice is, don’t keep score and forgive your spouse. You shouldn’t be dwelling on their faults. That’s the type of thing I was doing. Which now makes me feel like I’m a giver, he’s a taker. It made me a very easy target, constantly giving into the relationship.

PEOPLE IN HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS DON’T NEED COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, that people in healthy relationships do that naturally. We know that people aren’t perfect. With a healthy relationship with someone who’s not perfect and we’re not perfect, we know that people make mistakes.

We know there’s gonna be communication issues, stuff like that. We don’t have to read a book that tells us that people make mistakes. So the people reading the book, we who married an abusive man. I’m almost like those books should never have been written, because the only people reading them are women who are married to an abusive man.

Hannah: Oh my goodness, you’re so right.

Anne: People in healthy relationships don’t read books like that ’cause they don’t need to. They don’t need counseling for cheating, ’cause they already know. Oh, that was just a communication problem.

Hannah: It makes so much sense. One book I read, it even said in the book, you just need to do this, and this week you should work on giving words of affirmation to your husband. Or plan something for him. And at this point you might be feeling like, what is he doing for me? But don’t reflect on that. And I remember being like, okay, I’m not going to. That was a turning point for me where I cemented into my character, that I am not going to keep score.

WHY NOT KEEP SCORE?

Hannah: If this is neglect, he’s not investing in the relationship, he’s not paying attention to you. And the kind of things I thought was when is the last time he held my hand? Why am I always the one reaching out for physical contact? Why is it that every time he touches me, he wants something more? He doesn’t wanna sit next to me. When we’re out in public, he’s far away from me, and he’s okay with that. Why am I always the one feeling like I’m chasing him? That book shouldn’t have been written.

Anne: No, that’s what I mean. I don’t think people keep score in healthy relationships. They don’t need counseling for cheating. I’m saying this tongue in cheek, but like, why not keep score? What’s wrong with being like, wait a minute, I do all this stuff and he doesn’t. In fact, when it comes to abuse, it’s almost the opposite. Literally, write down these are all the household tasks that I do all the time, and these are the ones that he does.

And then just look at that list, see what that looks like. How many hours a day do we have? And if he’s not abusive, you could take that to him and say, you know what? I actually wrote all this down. And look at the disparity between our household tasks. A non-abusive person would be like. Wow, maybe I should stop watching so much football. Where an abusive person would be like, you don’t respect me at my job! What’s wrong with assessing the truth of the situation, which is essentially what they’re saying when they say don’t keep score. They’re basically saying, “Don’t assess what’s really happening.”

COUPLE THERAPY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH

Hannah: Yeah, when you’re on the abuse side of it, what marriage counselors say is all wrong. None of it works. Which is actually why I wrote to BTR, why I wanted to speak to you. What does counseling for cheating look like if you stay with your partner? Because I feel like with that history of abuse, that never goes away.

If the person does genuinely change and stops all their abusive behaviors, and then you’re rebuilding trust and in this relationship with someone. How do you approach counseling for cheating in the future? Because it’s unethical. Even if it’s 10 years down the road and you’ve stayed together. For the women staying and are rebuilding their trust. What do you do?

Anne: Yeah, so couple therapy is for essentially healthy marriages. It’s for two people who tell the truth, genuinely care about each other, have integrity, and make good choices. And they’re having trouble communicating or something. All the marriages I know that are like that, where they genuinely care about each other, where they’re both honest, they would never need to go to couple therapy. So the whole idea of couple therapy now to me is frankly ridiculous. If it were as healthy as it needs to be to go to couple therapy, you wouldn’t ever need to go.

Hannah: This dynamic seems unethical. The therapist automatically has to side with you. If this was any other kind of abuse, they wouldn’t put you in the same room, and they will have to side with you. So even if you were doing something wrong. They have to look at it through the lens of okay, but you’ve been traumatized.

IS COUNSELING FOR CHEATING UNETHICAL?

Anne: They would ethically have to, but I’ve never met a therapist that does in counseling for cheating. The very foundation of it is family systems theory, basically their ethical standards bind them to not see a perpetrator and a victim. If they do, they have to stop doing the therapy.

Hannah: Right.

Anne: ‘Cause it’s not ethical. So if they’re not noticing the abuse and doing the therapy, that’s unethical. And then the second they noticed it, which should be right away, but most of them aren’t doing screenings for it. They should quit, but most don’t. So I think all couple therapy is not a good idea, because healthy couples who don’t lie to each other don’t need to go to couple therapy.

Hannah: Mm.

Anne: In general.

Hannah: And that does resonate with me. There’s part of me that’s like individual therapy.

Anne: Yeah, the problem with individual therapy in this case is that assumes for the victim that something’s wrong with her. Because the purpose of therapy isn’t to fix what’s wrong with someone else.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: It’s to fix what’s wrong with you.

Hannah: Yeah.

Anne: Therapy for an abuse victim depends on the therapist, victims might need skills. We might need confidence.

Hannah: It is about coping skills. I think I even have a visceral reaction. It’s like when someone loses an arm, it doesn’t grow back. You just learn to cope with it. You’re not healed from it, really. And I feel like that’s how I see my life now. Talking to many people who have experienced this, it stays with you for life.

MOVING ON FROM CHEATING IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS PEOPLE THINK

Hannah: It’s a scar. You don’t forget it. You don’t have this magical I don’t remember anymore. That doesn’t happen. And so I guess for me it’s like for the women who are staying, how do you even frame that? For me personally, I am separated from my husband, we’re not divorced. I’m still trying to make a decision. I don’t wanna be that person who strings him along or is in limbo for years and years, but we have five kids, he’s gonna be in my life, permanently, whether I want him or not.

So I feel like he trapped me there. But there are women who choose to stay. And when I look at that, it’s like there’s always this dynamic of abuser and victim. Even if all the abuse stops, it’s like that’s still part of your history.

So how do you deal with that moving forward? Because even therapists who talk about if you decide to stay, then you have to work on yourself. Which like you said, what am I working on? What’s wrong with me?

Anne: Nothing’s wrong with you.

Hannah: You have to commit to the marriage, and you have to stop ruminating, stop bringing up the past, be all in. That language used in counseling for cheating obviously deeply bothers me, because I’m not choosing to remember this.

First of all, it’s like when people say you’re ruminating, no. It’s not even once or twice a day I get this flashback moment. It’s like from the moment I wake up, every thing reminds me all day long. So it’s on a loop all day long. ‘Cause this has been my life. So it’s not like I’m choosing to hold it against him. It’s just, it’s our life.

MAKING A DECISION TO GO OR STAY WHEN IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: Also that’s just not true. Did they tell him, “Well, if you’re gonna be married, you have to stop looking at pornography and lying to her.” And did he do it anyway during counseling for cheating? Yeah, he did.

So you can feel the way you feel. You can not be committed. When I say not to be committed, I don’t mean to cheat on him. I don’t mean that, but I just mean you can be like, yeah, I’m married to him, but I don’t like him and I’m not committed to him as a person. You could still legit do that. So anybody who’s saying, if you’re gonna stay married to him, then you have to do this and this and this. That’s not true.

Hannah: For me, I’m just thinking about a dynamic of I know all this, but objectively, when I hadn’t had this experience. How I would’ve thought about it. If you’re choosing to stay in a marriage.

If he is genuinely choosing to change, be a good person, I want that. The world does not need another person like him. Good, great, that would be awesome. I don’t know about my personal ability to believe him. I guess that’s what I’m still trying to work out. But I do know that when I’m trying to have empathy and sit in his shoes. And humanize him. Because obviously that’s very difficult for me at this point. He does need to, from a Christian perspective, forgive himself, see himself as a child of God, all these things to have a true conversion.

However, you wanna phrase it if you’re not Christian, genuinely change. I feel like we’re so incompatible now.

FORGIVENESS DOESN’T MEAN RESTORATION OF THE MARRIAGE

Hannah: If I’m staying, my needs and what’s going on in my head all day are exactly the opposite of someone who is trying to love themselves and see themselves as a child of God and needs a cheerleader. Obviously, I’m not capable of doing that, and I’m not going to do that. I don’t think any woman should. I am the survivor over here, and he’s the one who cheated.

I’m the loyal person who can’t even wrap my head around any of the things he’s done, because I loved him so deeply. He didn’t love me at all. And to move forward in a marriage like that. How do you move past, that feels like it’s been thrown off forever. That doesn’t come back.

Anne: However you want, I think is the answer. And you also don’t have to, you can stay married and not move past it.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: There is no right answer. And I think that’s the hard thing for everybody, because the right answer has to be that you have to forgive me and start sleeping in the same bed.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: Well, that’s just more manipulation and more lies, ’cause that’s not true. You can be married and not sleep in the same bed, not live in the same house. There’s like all of these options out there.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Anne: You can do literally whatever you want, but the hard part of it is having the confidence to do what you wanna do.

FINDING CLARITY ABOUT WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING

Anne: Rather than listening to someone who tells you, well, if you’re gonna do this, then you have to do it this way. And I think that’s where a lot of us get tripped up in counseling for cheating.

Hannah: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I got the workbook and worked through. It was very helpful, especially recognizing gaslighting. I think I was a frog in the boiling water. You would hear about all these other people who’ll stay through abuse. How will you do that?

Now when I reflect, how is that me? I saw him as this person I’ve known my whole life. So when he would say things, then he’d say, well, I didn’t mean it. And I believed him, it felt genuine to me.

That’s just him. That’s just us. He is just joking. He doesn’t mean it that way. And he does love me. It didn’t feel that bad to me when it was happening. Even though the logic, hang on a second, you’re just joking. What part of that is funny? I don’t think you’d speak to a colleague this way. Or find myself saying things like, you just changed your story. What is happening here?

Anne: The “excuse or the reason” doesn’t happen until after we call them out on it. So they say something, we call ’em out. Then they say it’s a joke. They don’t say, I’m gonna tell a joke. I know it might hurt your feelings, but I just thought of this. It’s funny, I actually don’t mean it. Are you ready? ’cause I think you might think it’s funny too, and then they say it. No, that would be like someone who’s aware of our feelings, who knows us well.

THERE WAS ALWAYS A GOOD EXPLANATION IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I think things like that about my kids sometimes I’m like, oh my word. This would be so funny to say right now.

So I’ll prepare my children like, Hey, I wanna say this joke. It’s not meant to hurt your feelings. And they laugh and think it’s funny. But that’s different than saying something. And then if you didn’t call him out, if you didn’t say, Hey, that hurt my feelings. Or if you didn’t say, Hey, wait, a colleague wouldn’t say that. He just goes about his day? The only time he says, oh, it’s a joke, or, oh, I didn’t mean it that way, was after you call him out on it.

Hannah: I’d be like, “oh, that makes sense, because I don’t wanna believe you could ever actually be hurtful and think of me that way.” There were moments throughout our relationship where I would question like oh, you’re talking down to me. There was always a good explanation. So when I did the workshop, that was very eye-opening, I saw the patterns of behavior.

It took really stepping back from it because I just believed he didn’t mean it that way. But obviously there are certain words and phrases, no one else uses it any other way. That was eye-opening.

My kids are getting older. A year has passed, and what am I supposed to do with my life? What does God want me to do with my life? What about my children? What’s best for them? These are questions that I find are very circular. I can answer them all.

THE PERSON I THOUGHT I WAS MARRIED TO NEVER EXISTED

Hannah: Obviously, God wouldn’t want anything bad for me. What’s best for me and what keeps me safe is best for my children. I do know that.

Anne: We know God wants you to be safe . Not knowing what the specifics of that are, is okay.

Hannah: I don’t think anyone is like calling me up and pressuring me or anything like that. But people in your community check in, they ask how are you and you’re Chuck? And they’re asking if we’re back together yet. Or have we been to counseling for cheating? I think there’s always that kind of pressure. I have been realizing that it is mostly my own view. Because ultimately, I don’t know what other people think.

I don’t know what actually goes on in their brains. I just know what I think they think and what I think they think often is how I see the world. Even when this first happened, I knew I would tell me to leave. I knew that pretty much instantly, because I’ve had so many conversations with different people.

My own parents were divorced. My dad married his affair partner. I wanted to avoid divorce, I did everything to find a good guy, looked out for all the warning signs, or so I thought. It seems like I am living the worst version of life possible, the worst nightmare come true. And the acceptance of living every day grieving the fact that this person I thought I was married to never existed. And the man that’s before me now is this person I don’t even know. I don’t even recognize. It’s hard to reconcile that this is the guy who’s made all these choices.

ONCE A CHEATER, ALWAYS A CHEATER?

Hannah: Part of that for me is once a cheater, always a cheater. People say this. It’s not that I believe he can’t change or won’t change, or even that he’s going to do it again. That resonates with me. The once that cheater always cheater. Not just because of the stigma, but because to me, it’s the same thing as a murderer. I know that sounds extreme, but even if you just killed the one guy, we’re not gonna stop calling you a murderer.

Like it has that impact on people’s lives, it changes how we see you to the point where you just earned yourself a new name. It’s the type of thing that doesn’t go away. We as a society try to rehabilitate these people. But if you’re the person who knew that person who did that, they’re a murderer in your mind, just because of how it changed your view. You didn’t know they had the capacity to do that thing, and now that you know that you can’t unknown that even if they never do it again.

Anne: It’s a character issue. There are a lot of people in this world who never do that, like ever.

Hannah: Exactly.

Anne: I’ve never cheated on my husband or lied him for seven years. Good people, when they’re making good decisions, they never do that. And shouldn’t need counseling for cheating.

AN EBOLA ANALOGY FOR COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Anne: I fully believe that people can change with or without counseling for cheating. Maybe that is not the right thing for someone who is an abuse advocate to say, but I just believe it in my bones. I can’t not believe it.

The way that I view it is more like, I don’t know if you’ve heard my Ebola analogy. My analogy is Ebola is a thing that you can get treatment for and that you can heal from. But nobody would say hey, move in with this person, or sleep in the same bed with a person who has Ebola, ever, ever, ever. That person’s literally gonna be isolated until they legit do not have Ebola anymore and so I think that that’s the way I think of it.

Is that if they have a little bit of Ebola. I’m not going to be around them. So like my ex for example, he still lies. If he didn’t, he would do some things differently. Like there’s some things that he would be doing with our children that I would be able to see with my own eyeballs. He pays zero and when I say zero I mean legit zero child support, zero alimony, zero things for our children. His relationship with them stinks. The way that he interacts with them stinks. So I can see he still has Ebola right now. So it’s not like I’m gonna be like, oh I can hang out with you now.

Hannah: So I guess the limitations for myself are that like everyone thought he was a great father, a great husband, myself included. And he was involved and he did do all the things. Like we prayed together every day.

Anne: So did we.

THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE IS THE CHOICES HE MADE

Hannah: Can’t tell that he had Ebola in this case. It’s like maybe he has Ebola and he’s just hiding it very well.

Anne: Yeah. I love your point about the murderer. It’s okay to be like, you know what? I don’t really wanna be with someone who’s murdered somebody. So if you were dating someone new, And you said I don’t really want to be with someone who lied to their wife for 4 years and had an affair. And used pornography the whole time That would also apply to him. That’s also fine to say.

So just because people can change doesn’t mean that you owe them anything. It doesn’t mean you have to stick around. It doesn’t mean any of that.

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. The the crux of the issue for me is the choices you’ve made and even if those are in the past. That does bring it back to the marriage counseling for cheating thing. There’s no timeline for these things so you might be rebuilding trust for the next 40 years or till you die. Obviously some people are going to be like I’m not here for that, that’s too hard. When someone has broken your trust so deeply you might always have that catch in your gut, oh, what if?

Anne: It might not even be rebuilding either, it might all be manipulation. This question of are they still lying or not? Even if they’re not can I view them differently now? All of that is hard to process. And there is no right answer and that’s also the hard thing. It would be much easier to be like, if this is here and this is here and this is there then this what I should do.

EVERYBODY’S SITUATION IS DIFFERENT

Anne: Nothing that we do we do at BTR is like that counseling for cheating. Because everybody’s situation is different. Everybody has a different feeling for what they want to do with their life. The only thing I care about is that women know what emotional safety is and that’s their top priority. And they’re working toward that in whatever form that takes for them.

The other thing I really care about is that women are living their own life. There is a part in the workshop that I love. That’s like what are your dreams, what are your goals? What do you want to do with your life? Knowing that it literally is your one life. When you’re with someone who’s lying to it really feels like your life, my life is on hold. Helping women in whatever way overcome that so that they can start building the life that they want to live.

Hannah: Yes, It’s helpful obviously hearing other people’s stories and trying to work through. I do recognize that everything I’m going through now is through this somewhat narrow lens of my own experience. Some people feel a lot differently, because their experience was different. It’s not a one size fits all.

I was very active in the community and obviously it blind-sided me, just having to take time off from all the things I was involved in. I told him, I’m not explaining this to anyone. If you wanna be accountable, if you wanna prove yourself, go ahead I don’t care. I’m not policing you, I’m not doing anything. I’m just gonna take a step back from everything. I didn’t want to be the person checking his phone. ‘ Cause in my mind there’s no point.

I CAN’T CONTROL YOU IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Hannah: I can’t control you. You hid this so well for so long. You were already pretending to be open and transparent. Also you already let me go through your phone you already pretended like you had nothing to hide. So with his job, he travels. I knew where you were before cause you were where you said you were I just didn’t know you were with someone. You could have a whole second family and I wouldn’t know. There is no point in me trying.

He said he genuinely wanted to change, that he didn’t want to be that person anymore. He’s like, I don’t deserve to be with you. I don’t know.

Anne: I know that could either be true or it could be manipulation. In your case, the way that you’re feeling right now, for you, it doesn’t matter and the reason I’m saying that is because even if he is telling the truth you can still make different decisions. Just because he told the truth doesn’t mean that you owe him something. Or that you have to go to counseling for cheating.

As a Christian myself, in the scriptures over and over it talks about forgiveness in the context of debt. That’s what Jesus is talking about, He’s like forgive the people indebted to you so that you’re not stressed out all the time, By like hey you owe me money, you owe me money. If you forgive the debt they can go on their way and you never have to see them again.

He owes you a good marriage. If you forgive him, you could rip up the contract and be like, I’m forgiving you of the debt that you owe me of a good marriage and we can move apart.

THE GOOD NEWS

Anne: In the scriptures forgiveness is a way of moving away from someone, not toward them. So I think it’s weird that so many Christians have interpreted it that way when it’s continually used in the context of debt. There’s just different ways of processing it and you will figure it out. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders and whatever the right thing is for you. You will do it. That’s the good news.

Hannah: Well, thank you.

Anne: Well, you are awesome. Thank you so much for spending time with me to talk about cheating and counseling for cheating today, Hannah.

Hannah: Thank you for having me. It’s been really helpful And I hope that this conversation helps other women who come and find your channel. I know that your channel has been really helpful for me. It’s been wonderful meeting you and talking to you. So thanks for everything you do, Anne.

Anne: Thank you.

IS ONLINE BETRAYAL CHEATING?

Anne: And now you’re gonna be introduced to my mom. The first time I aired this, women were like, “I love your mom. She’s awesome.” And I love her too.

So a lot of women wonder if their husband is “just” looking at inappropriate media online is that cheating and do we need counseling for cheating? I think it is, and my mom thinks it is. In fact, the word we use is adultery. And so here’s a conversation with my mom about why a husband secretly using inappropriate media online is actually, and technically adultery. Some husband’s actually secretly film their wives.

My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how inappropriate media isn’t just viewing videos, or pictures. It almost always involves self-pleasure.

It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation.

COUNSELING FOR CHEATING? IT’S CHEATING BECAUSE OF WHAT HE’S ACTUALLY DOING

Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex?

Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking.

But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman.

So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from. There wasn’t talk about counseling for cheating.

WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL

Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart. That isn’t the focus in counseling for cheating.

Anne: Many people don’t think that it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience that someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer.

Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean …

Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video.

Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation.

ONLINE BETRAYAL IS ADULTERY

Anne: Through the masturbation part. My Mom’s idea, and I liked it, is for all of us rather than saying pornography is to say virtual sex all the time. Which is gonna be hard because everyone says pornography. But I’ve started saying it, and it’s actually been kind of cool. Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a virtual reality, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery?

Mom: I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery.

Anne: Regardless of how they got there.

Mom: Right.

Anne: They’re a real person.

Mom: Yes, they are a real person.

Anne: And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself.

HOW HE HIDES HIS ONLINE BETRAYAL IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING

Mom: Maybe I’m wrong, maybe when people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing.

Anne: Or a video.

Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it.

Anne: When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it.

Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that?

Mom: Yeah.

Anne: No one.

Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation.

Anne: Right

Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing.

Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer.

Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses.

Anne: They’re having sex with themselves.

Mom: Yes.

RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES ABOUT ONLINE BETRAYAL

Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. If you relate, comment below. Do you think it’s adultery and why?

Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship.

Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication.

It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion. Is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it and counseling for cheating. Again If you relate, comment below.

We’d also like you to share this on social media, see what other people think. You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. So many people don’t know what is exploitative. To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company.

Mom: Or bad company.

Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence.

Mom: Dangerous.

Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew?

Mom: Matthew chapter 5.

Anne: I love my Mom.

WHAT WE’VE LEARNED ABOUT ONLINE AND EMOTIONAL BETRAYAL

Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex.

If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. And is lying emotional abuse? If you agree with us, maybe because your husband does this with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about.

We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different.

We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our daily support group schedule. We’d love to see you in a group session today.

There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children.

If you’re going through this and need support, come to our online support group for betrayal trauma.

FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce. I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. In my case: My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities.

The system didn’t protect me. I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. What actually happened: When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is.

Doing more didn’t fix it. I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. But: None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later.

He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense.

Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything. The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. For me: I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy.

This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal.

And about a year later…everything changed.

LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION

Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to co parenting with a narcissistic parent. They want chaos and enjoy the fight.

To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries.

Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom.

It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger.

They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice.

WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU: ABUSE BY PROXY

If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress.

It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved.

TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement.

But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now.

I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids.

Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful.

If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you.

These are a few things that I wish I understood back then.

THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can.

Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting.

Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time.

Third, doing more doesn’t fix it.

I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped.

Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions.

He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility.

Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense.

Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything.

My turning point was not trying harder.

It was actually doing something completely different.

I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you.

‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father.

And that question led me to study the scriptures on betrayal and deliverance and to pray.

DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome.

These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives.

So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer.

And I was given full decision making power.

So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages.

WRITING THE LIVING FREE WORKSHOP

Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies?

They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Living Free Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop.

So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced.

As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out.

These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change.

For more information about my Living Free Workshop and these strategies, go to btr.org/living free.

LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING

Okay, let’s cue the recording.

Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ.

For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world.

PARABLE OF THE WHEAT & THE TARES

Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t.

They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting healthy boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids.

But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments.

They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore?

And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries.

SETTING BOUNDARIES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches.

Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win.

I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense.

We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. Healthy boundaries in marriage separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety.

Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children.

SCRIPTURAL HELPS & SAFETY

Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields.

And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left.

CALL FOR PRAYERS FOR PEACE & DELIVERANCE

Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace?

Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them.

Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you.

Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right.

PERSONAL CUSTODY STRUGGLES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule.

Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the Our Family Wizard app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me.

So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through Our Family Wizard. That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes.

REPORTING ABUSE CAN BE UNSAFE

Anne: If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess.

I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God.

Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children.

So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice.

I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with.

HOPE & FAITH IN GOD

Anne: One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that.

Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them.

Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children.

It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again.

WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU, PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE

Anne: So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than prayer for your husband to change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out.

I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts don’t understand this. They think he’s just trying to be a good dad. But that’s not it, and therapists don’t understand he’s just using the children to hurt you.

That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow.

That deliverance would be a miracle. I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do and we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else.

PRAYING FOR CUSTODY CASE & MY SITUATION GOT WORSE

Anne: I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now.

It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work.

It’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce.

She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together, and it’s co-parenting with a narcissist. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it.

I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. But it’s hard to be grateful when your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day.

YOUR COMMENTS HELP OTHERS FIND US

Anne: By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

Please go to BTR.ORG, find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy.

“The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.”

“I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.”

I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth.

IT’S OKAY TO BE ANGRY WHEN HE’S HURTING YOU AND YOUR KIDS

Anne: The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this.

I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it’s not normal to not be angry in this situation. Being angry is a normal reaction when your ex is hurting your kids. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter.

The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet.

So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because he hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.

PERMISSION GIVEN TO BE ANGRY & BITTER

Anne: Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to how abusers gaslight women into not taking steps to safety.

I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. It’s not like you just become bitter, go mad or grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety.

That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time.

And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it.

Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us to use when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

THE CHARACTER OF ABUSERS

Anne: Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate can leave women wondering is my husband grooming me? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action when your ex is still hurting the kids?

I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It’s to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I’ve had many conversations about the term entitlement.

We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word.

EXPLOITATIVE PRIVILEGE, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU

Anne: I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that.

These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege and it’s abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable.

But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great.

This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege, it’s important to try to prevent exploitation. https://www.btr.org/how-to-prevent-exploitation/ That is always an abusive situation. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal.

Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal? When your ex hasn’t stopped hurting the kids.

MY CURRENT REFLECTIONS

Anne: So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. And use our anger to take action when your ex hurts the kids.








Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live.

That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain.

MIRACLES COME THROUGH HARD WORK

Anne: My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen?

And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner.

And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest.

No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know.

Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you.

It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it.

If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.