Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief with Cameron Herold

What does it take to go from Chief of Staff to running your own business unit before turning 30?
In this Fan Favorite episode, Cameron Herold sits down with Melisa Tokmak, former General Manager of Document AI at Scale AI and now founder of Netic, to revisit one of the show's most insightful conversations on building teams and leading fast.
Melisa's path is rare: a tiny village in Turkey, Stanford, Facebook, then right hand to Scale's CEO. She breaks down what a chief of staff really does, how she wins over senior candidates when she is younger than most, and why doing everything yourself is the hardest habit to break.
Whether you are building a team or chasing a bigger role, this conversation is a masterclass in taking the elevator. Listen now.
Sponsored by:
STS Capital Partners - Your expert guides on the journey to an Extraordinary Exit™. To learn more about STS Capital Partners and how they achieve maximum value by Selling to Strategics™, check out here.
Timestamped Highlights
05:48 Attracting Top Talent
08:42 Leadership Development
11:20 Transitioning to Scale AI
14:40 Defining Chief of Staff
18:59 Overcoming Growth Challenges
22:33 Focusing on Priorities
26:02 Hiring and Culture
30:04 Identifying Candidates
33:33 First Principles Approach
36:40 Career Advice and Closing
About the Guest
Melisa Tokmak is the founder of Netic. At the time of this recording, she was General Manager of Document AI at Scale AI, where she led a team of engineers, machine learning scientists, and product, operations, sales, and marketing talent building fine-tuned models for logistics, financial services, healthcare, and government. She joined Scale two years out of college as Chief of Staff to CEO Alexandr Wang, then founded the company's government unit, whose customers included the U.S. Army, the Defense Innovation Unit, and the U.S. Air Force.
Mentioned Resources
Scale AI
Stanford University
Meta (Facebook)
1-800-GOT-JUNK?
Defense Innovation Unit
Important Links
Connect with Cameron: Website | LinkedIn
Explore the COO Alliance – The World's Leading Community for Seconds in Command
Get Cameron's book: Second in Command, Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Claim your FREE copy: Second in Command: Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Take his course: Invest In Your Leaders Online Course (Use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month for 10% off)
Chat or video call with AI Cameron via Delphi

What does it take to keep a brewery's supply chain running when a hurricane floods it six feet deep, four days after you start the job?
In this episode, Lindsay Smith sits down with Tom O'Connell, Chief Supply Chain Officer at New Belgium Beer. Tom brings nearly 28 years in brewing, including 25 years at Anheuser-Busch where he led more than 1,400 employees across 46 locations, before joining New Belgium in 2024 to oversee brewing operations across its four US breweries.
Tom breaks down what it actually means to own everything from raw materials to the last mile of delivery, how New Belgium keeps culture consistent across four very different regions, and what he learned leading the Asheville brewery through Hurricane Helene, a crisis that tested the company's people first philosophy in real time.
Listen now.
Sponsored by:
Genius Network, an exclusive community for highly successful entrepreneurs, that connects you with top-tier leaders, strategic insights, and powerful relationships to help you grow your business faster and smarter. Learn more here.
Timestamped Highlights
00:33 Meet Tom O'Connell, Chief Supply Chain Officer
02:00 How Tom Got Into Beer by Fate
02:54 25 Years at Anheuser-Busch
04:14 What the Chief Supply Chain Officer Role Covers
09:56 The Annual Leadership Retreat
12:06 Managing Culture Across Four Regions
14:42 Innovation Engine: Voodoo Ranger, RTDs, and Kirin
25:20 Hurricane Helene Hits Asheville
27:56 Crisis Leadership: People First
44:07 Rising Costs and Supply Chain Disruptions
About the Guest
Tom O'Connell is Chief Supply Chain Officer at New Belgium Beer, where he oversees brewing operations and supply chain strategy across the company's four US breweries. He brings nearly 28 years of brewing experience, including 25 years at Anheuser-Busch, where he rose from intern to Vice President of Brewing and Quality for North America, leading a team of more than 1,400 employees across 46 locations. He joined New Belgium in 2024 and led the Asheville brewery's recovery after Hurricane Helene flooded the facility just days into his tenure.
Mentioned Resources
Anheuser-Busch
New Belgium Brewing
Bell's Brewery
About the Co-Host
Lindsay Smith is an experience-driven growth strategist and former Chief Strategy Officer. She previously scaled a new region without a traditional sales team or bloated marketing budget by turning relationships, culture, and execution into revenue. She is the author of No One Needs Another Company Mug, Stop Branding, Start Experiencing, and helps leadership teams use experience as a competitive growth lever.
Important Links
Connect with Cameron: Website | LinkedIn
Explore the COO Alliance – The World's Leading Community for Seconds in Command
Get Cameron's book: Second in Command, Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Claim your FREE copy: Second in Command: Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Take his course: Invest In Your Leaders Online Course (Use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month for 10% off)
Chat or video call with AI Cameron via Delphi

Ep. 608 - FAN FAVORITE | YPO President and COO Sean Magennis - Lead With a Servant's Heart
What does it take to lead an organization of 27,600 CEOs across 135 countries while still leading with a servant's heart?
In this Fan Favorite episode, Cameron Herold sits down with Sean Magennis, former International Chairman of the Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO) and former President and COO of YPO, now EVP at Scouting America, to revisit one of the show's most insightful conversations on peer leadership.
Sean's path is rare: he bootstrapped his own business from South Africa to Canada with no debt and no laptop, then spent over two decades immersed in confidential peer groups before helping run one of the largest CEO communities in the world.
They get into how YPO's confidential "Forum" model teaches CEOs to speak from experience rather than give advice, why businesses evolve through life stages the same way people do, and the exact habits that keep his partnership with YPO's CEO in sync.
Listen now.
Sponsored by:
Redirect Health offers healthcare benefits that finally make health insurance optional: a 24-hour online primary care and RX membership that protects your business by guiding employees before problems happen. Learn more: redirectcoo.com
Timestamped Highlights
00:00 YPO and the Mastermind Landscape for Entrepreneurs
02:10 Sean Magennis: From EO Forum Committee to YPO
07:15 The Volunteer Addiction: 23 Years of Peer Group Leadership
10:05 Inside YPO Today: 27,600 Members and $9 Trillion in Member Sales
13:40 The Forum: YPO's Confidential Peer Group Model for CEOs
16:20 How YPO Teaches Vulnerability and Builds Trust Among CEOs
19:00 Forum in Business: Bringing Peer Principles to the Workplace
27:00 How Businesses Evolve Through Lifecycle Stages Like Humans
36:20 Sean's Key COO Skills: Ego Management, Coaching, and Coordination
43:00 The CEO-COO Partnership and Sean's Biggest Lesson
About the Guest
Sean Magennis is EVP at Scouting America. At the time of this recording, he was President and COO of YPO, the global community of chief executives, where he led alongside a 27-year YPO member CEO and a board of 17 CEOs overseeing 27,600 members in 135 countries. He began his career in South Africa before moving to Canada in 1990, where he bootstrapped an organizational development and executive search business across Canada, the US, and Mexico, and served as past International Chairman of the Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO).
Mentioned Resources
Entrepreneurs' Organization (EO)
Dow Limited
College Pro Painters
Fortune's Best Places to Work list
Important Links
Connect with Cameron: Website | LinkedIn
Explore the COO Alliance – The World's Leading Community for Seconds in Command
Get Cameron's book: Second in Command, Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Claim your FREE copy: Second in Command: Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Take his course: Invest In Your Leaders Online Course (Use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month for 10% off)
Chat or video call with AI Cameron via Delphi

What happens when a company builds its growth strategy around reviving forgotten small towns instead of chasing the next big metro?
In this episode our co-host, Lindsay Smith, sits down with Nick Murphy, COO of Optomi Professional Services, a 100% US based technology firm operating through two brands: Optomi, which delivers high-end IT staffing, and Provalus, which brings IT and business process consulting to centers of excellence in rural America.
He built his career across investment banking, a decade at The Home Depot, and a senior finance role at Ibotta before joining Optomi in 2023 and being appointed COO in December 2025.
Together they get into the exact criteria Provalus uses before betting on a town, how one Wall Street Journal feature turned into a wave of national press, and why Nick says his people are the closest thing his company has to inventory.
Listen now.
Sponsored by:
Cadre AI - If you are ready to turn AI into real growth for your business rather than just more tools visit Cadre AI to discover how their team helps companies increase revenue, improve profitability, and implement AI that truly delivers results: https://www.cadreai.com/coo
Timestamped Highlights
0:00 — Staying Close to the Business
0:44 — Nick Murphy Introduction
6:25 — "Business Partners First, Finance Partners Second"
10:41 — Wall Street Journal Feature
12:10 — "A Company of Firsts"
13:25 — Untapped Talent in Rural America
15:56 — Revitalizing Main Street
20:08 — Paying 100% of Benefits
29:43 — Most Exciting Career Moment
33:08 — "Executive Amnesia" and the CEO Relationship
34:15 — Challenging the CEO
40:05 — "If I'm the Bottleneck, We've Got a Busted Process"
41:50 — AI as a Growth Vector
46:16 — Childhood Dream: School Bus Driver
About the Guest
Nick Murphy is COO of Optomi Professional Services, where he oversees both the Optomi staffing brand and the Provalus managed services brand. He built his career across investment banking with SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, nearly a decade at The Home Depot spanning finance, merchandising, e-commerce, and marketing, and a senior finance role at Ibotta. He joined Optomi in 2023, built out FP&A, marketing, PR, and enterprise strategy, and was appointed COO in December 2025.
Mentioned Resources
SunTrust Robinson Humphrey
The Home Depot
Ibotta
Wall Street Journal
Fox Business
News Nation
Newsweek
cooalliance.com/freebook
About the Co-Host
Lindsay Smith is an experience-driven growth strategist and former Chief Strategy Officer. She previously scaled a new region without a traditional sales team or bloated marketing budget by turning relationships, culture, and execution into revenue. She is the author of No One Needs Another Company Mug, Stop Branding, Start Experiencing, and helps leadership teams use experience as a competitive growth lever.
Important Links
Connect with Cameron: Website | LinkedIn
Explore the COO Alliance – The World's Leading Community for Seconds in Command
Get Cameron's book: Second in Command, Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Claim your FREE copy: Second in Command: Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Take his course: Invest In Your Leaders Online Course (Use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month for 10% off)
Chat or video call with AI Cameron via Delphi

What does it take to sit at the right hand of three different CEOs, back to back, and make each partnership work?
In this Fan Favorite episode, Cameron Herold sits down with Laurie Aaron, former Chief of Staff at AT&T and now founder of Arron Coaching, LLC, to revisit one of the show's most clarifying conversations on a role almost nobody truly understands.
Laurie's path is rare: 30 years inside AT&T and three successive CEOs gave her a front-row seat to how the chief of staff role must reinvent itself with every leader. She breaks down what separates a chief of staff from a COO and an executive assistant, and why the best ones prevent problems the CEO never even sees.
Whether you're wondering if you need a chief of staff, or wondering if you already are one, this conversation demystifies the role end to end. Listen now.
Sponsored by:
AMP - a practical, proven methodology that helps teams move from trying to do more with AI to achieving more because of it, replacing fragmented experimentation with real AI Operations capability. Through personalized training, strategy, and hands-on support, teams get a clear path to build momentum and embed AI into daily work. Learn more here.
Timestamped Highlights
00:00 Why the Chief of Staff Role Is So Misunderstood
02:10 The Origins: From the Military to the Corporate World
04:30 What Every Effective Chief of Staff Has in Common
07:15 Chief of Staff vs. COO: Where the Roles Diverge
10:05 My Right Hand and My Left Hand: Chief of Staff vs. Executive Assistant
13:40 How Title Inflation Diluted the Role
16:20 What Chiefs of Staff Are Actually Paid
19:00 Writing Who Has Your Back?
21:30 Can Any C-Suite Leader Have a Chief of Staff?
24:15 Where the Best Chiefs of Staff Really Come From
27:00 Why You Should Look Internally First
30:10 Building the Interview Squad
33:45 How Trust Gets Built Between a CEO and Their Chief
36:20 The Handshake Meeting: Setting the Vows
39:50 Knowing When and How to Challenge a CEO
43:00 Coaching CEOs and Chiefs of Staff as a Team
45:30 Speak Yourself Into the Room: Laurie's Advice to Her Younger Self
About the Guest
Laurie Aaron built her expertise on the chief of staff role over 30 years at AT&T, where she served as chief of staff to three different CEOs in succession. She is now the founder and CEO of Arron Coaching, LLC, a trusted advisor and executive coach to C-Suite leaders and chiefs of staff, and the author of Who Has Your Back?: A Leader's Guide to Getting the Support You Need by the Chief of Staff You Deserve.
Mentioned Resources
Who Has Your Back?
Hit The Ground Running
AT&T
The Misunderstood Role of the COO
cooalliance.com/freebook
Important Links
Connect with Cameron: Website | LinkedIn
Explore the COO Alliance – The World's Leading Community for Seconds in Command
Get Cameron's book: Second in Command, Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Claim your FREE copy: Second in Command: Unleash the Power of Your COO Book
Take his course: Invest In Your Leaders Online Course (Use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month for 10% off)
Chat or video call with AI Cameron via Delphi