The Remnant Radio's Podcast

Is hell a divine torture chamber? Dr. Paul Copan says no, and he's the one defending the traditional view. In Part 2 of our Hell Debate series, the Palm Beach Atlantic University philosopher and co-editor of the forthcoming Concerning Hell makes the biblical case for eternal conscious punishment while giving annihilationism the fairest hearing you'll find anywhere. Fresh off Kirk Cameron's viral Hellgate roundtable, Copan and Joshua work through the texts, the caricatures, and the question underneath it all: who is the God doing the judging?

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
When people think of hell, images of the devil tormenting souls with a pitchfork and eternal fire come to mind. Dr. Paul Copan defends the traditional view of hell, but he wants that picture gone. So if that's not hell, what is? And if the popular image is a caricature, what exactly has the church been arguing about?

Copan isn't watching this debate from the cheap seats. He was at the table for Kirk Cameron's Hellgate roundtable, the conversation that lit up half the Christian internet. He co-edited the forthcoming book Concerning Hell (IVP Academic) with Chris Date, the very annihilationist who made the opposing case in Part 1 of this series. Friends on opposite sides, writing the book together. Now he sits down with Joshua for the conversation Hellgate didn't have time for.

And the texts get harder the closer you look. Jesus calls the prodigal son "lost" with the same destruction language annihilationists build their case on, yet the son walks home alive. Smoke rises forever in Revelation 14:10-11 from something that supposedly no longer exists. Matthew 25:46 puts eternal punishment and eternal life in the same breath, and both sides claim that verse as their own. Copan walks through each one, and along the way he admits something scholars rarely admit on camera: a text he used to read wrong, and what changed his mind about 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Then Joshua asks the question this whole debate keeps circling: at what point does our picture of hell describe a different God altogether? 

Watch Part 1: https://youtu.be/sVOQfKMB6RI

0:00 Introduction
1:09 Dr. Paul Copan Introduction
3:08 Eternal Punishment vs Annihilationism
8:53 Kirk Cameron Hellgate Discussion
13:50 Early Church Fathers
17:55 Matthew 25 Eternal Punishment
29:17 Destruction Language: Matthew 10
38:05 2 Thessalonians: God's Presence
41:04 Revelation 14: Apocalyptic Imagery
52:04 Worshiping a Different God?
1:03:48 Universalism and Orthodoxy
1:11:41 Closing Thoughts

ABOUT THE GUEST: 
- Concerning Hell: The Doctrine in Theological, Philosophical, Historical, and Biblical Dialogue (ed. Paul Copan & Christopher M. Date, IVP Academic, available for pre-order): https://www.ivpress.com/concerning-hell
- Dr. Paul Copan's website: https://www.paulcopan.com

RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Divorce-C-S-Lewis/dp/0061774197
- Erasing Hell by Francis Chan & Preston Sprinkle: https://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-About-Eternity-Things/dp/0781407257
Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX
Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026
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A cessationist prays for a sick friend, and the friend recovers. He calls it answered prayer. A continuationist watches the same moment and calls it the gift of healing. Same event, same God, two labels. And that difference explains more about why this debate stalls than almost anything else.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
The conversation continues. In Part 1, Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller looked at how continuationists and cessationists end up misrepresenting each other: different theological streams, suspicion of motives, judging each other's worst instead of engaging each other's best. This episode picks up where that one left off, and it examines the reasons behind the arguments.

Because the deepest divides in this debate aren't really about the facts. Both sides can watch the identical healing and walk away more convinced of their own position. So Josh and Michael dig into the questions underneath: Does personal experience count as theological evidence, or is testimony inadmissible from the start? Why do charismatic scandals go viral while other traditions' failures stay quiet? And how do personal wounds, the cold church that dismissed your experience or the one that manipulated your trust, quietly harden into theology?

Join us for an episode on how we can better see each other's point of view and how to find common ground as Christian brothers and sisters in the continuationist versus cessationist debate.

PART 1 EPISODE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmzY30Ddl4
Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX
Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026
Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.
Support the show
ABOUT THE REMNANT RADIO: 
The Remnant Radio exists to equip believers who are hungry for the radical middle of both Word and Spirit. Subscribe for twice-weekly content on theology, church history and the gifts of the Spirit.
📧 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER
📚 COURSES & CONFERENCES
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Rowntree's Church

What does the Bible actually say happens to the lost? Chris Date of ​Rethinking Hell joins the show to lay out the biblical case for annihilationism / conditional immortality, the view that the unsaved are resurrected, judged, and then die a second death rather than suffering consciously forever.

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Chris spent his first years as a believer firmly convinced of eternal conscious torment, until an interview with the late Edward Fudge sent him back to the text. What followed was months spent trying to defend the traditional view and failing to find a version of it that held up exegetically. In this conversation, he walks through why.

A lot of believers are quietly wrestling with the doctrine of hell right now, caught between a traditional view that many find hard to square with the character of God and a universalism that abandons judgment altogether. Chris argues conditionalism is neither of those things: it takes judgment seriously while insisting the Bible describes that judgment as death, not endless suffering.

Wherever you land on after watching, Chris's closing word is worth sitting with: this is a debate the creeds leave open, and how we treat brothers and sisters who land differently matters as much as the conclusion we reach.

0:00 – Introduction
0:54 – Chris Date's Testimony
6:49 – Defining Conditional Immortality
14:50 – Tree Of Life Motif
19:37 – Why Hell Debate Now
35:37 – Daniel & Matthew 25
42:22 – Matthew 10:28 Apollumi
49:47 – 2 Thessalonians 1:9
57:21 – Revelation 20 Lake Fire
1:13:35 – Partial Conditionalism Debate
1:20:46 – Rethinking Hell Resources
1:30:52 – Closing Thoughts: Atonement

ABOUT THE GUEST:
Rethinking Hell: https://rethinkinghell.com/
Chris Date's website: https://www.chrisdate.info/
Chris Date's journal articles: https://www.chrisdate.info/journal-articles

RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-That-Consumes-Historical-Punishment/dp/1608999300
Edward Fudge, Hell: A Final Word: https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Final-Edward-W-Fudge/dp/0891121498
Edward Fudge & Robert Peterson, Two Views of Hell: https://www.ivpress.com/two-views-of-hell
Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism: https://rethinkinghell.com/rethinkinghell-book/
A Consuming Passion: Essays on Hell and Immortality in Honor of Edward Fudge: https://rethinkinghell.com/aconsumingpassion-book/
Concerning Hell (Copan, Date & Huff, IVP Academic): https://www.amazon.com/Concerning-Hell-Theological-Philosophical-Historical/dp/1514004976
Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX
Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026
Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.
Support the show
ABOUT THE REMNANT RADIO: 
The Remnant Radio exists to equip believers who are hungry for the radical middle of both Word and Spirit. Subscribe for twice-weekly content on theology, church history and the gifts of the Spirit.
📧 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER
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Continuationists and cessationists spend a lot of time responding to one another, but how often is that response actually accurate? Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller explore the caricatures both sides fall into when talking about the gifts of the Spirit.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
Most debates about the gifts of the Spirit aren't really debates. They're two sides responding to a caricature of the other. Cessationists often get flattened as denying the supernatural altogether. Continuationists get painted as accepting any miracle claim with zero discernment. Neither one is a fair assessment, and in a body of Christ already low on trust, sloppy caricatures do real damage.

This isn't a conversation about one bad take or one public figure. Joshua and Michael zoom out to examine the broader habits that shape our theological debates. How should we define each other’s positions? What responsibility do we have to correct our own overstatements? And how can we strongly disagree while still representing one another truthfully?

The goal isn't to erase the real differences between continuationism and cessationism. Those differences matter, and this episode doesn't pretend otherwise. The goal is precision, humility, and the kind of Christian charity that's supposed to mark how believers disagree, because you can't fairly critique a position you haven't first tried to understand.

0:00 – Introduction
1:36 – Continuationism & Cessationism Defined
2:29 – Bethel Church Misdefinition
4:38 – Justin Peters Discussion
13:56 – Show Outline Overview
15:32 – Wesleyan Vs Reformed Roots
22:46 – God Told Me Providence
28:21 – Ordinary Vs Extraordinary Grace
40:11 – Suspicion Of Motives
56:02 – Judging Worst Not Best
1:00:26 – Destiny Image Concerns
Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX
Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026
Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.
Support the show
ABOUT THE REMNANT RADIO: 
The Remnant Radio exists to equip believers who are hungry for the radical middle of both Word and Spirit. Subscribe for twice-weekly content on theology, church history and the gifts of the Spirit.
📧 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER
📚 COURSES & CONFERENCES
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Heresy doesn't knock and announce itself. It shows up wearing just enough biblical language to sound credible. Joshua Lewis breaks down Cracking the Time Code by Candice Smithyman (Destiny Image, 2025), offering a robust scriptural critique that doubles as a lesson in how to spot the same patterns anywhere else you find them.

Joshua's review traces how the book builds toward a word of faith framework, where your own faith produces blessing and protects against loss, and even extends into a claim that death itself may be optional for a sufficiently "heaven-attuned" believer. If that sounds familiar, it should. Prosperity theology, gnostic anthropology, and low Christology have circled through church history since the first century, just with new packaging each time.

Watch this episode to better understand why this book is promoting false teaching and heresy, not Christianity. Additionally, use Josh's teaching as a case study for recognizing the false. The goal is for all of us to get sharper at telling the difference between genuine insight and repackaged error.

0:00 – Introduction
2:16 – Cracking the Time Code
2:32 – Greek and Hebrew Foundations
4:22 – Invented Word Meanings
10:18 – Correct Words, Wrong Theology
15:01 – Word of Faith Imports
21:53 – Gnosticism in the Book
28:01 – Most Dangerous Claims
34:53 – Closing Thoughts
Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TX
Learn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026
Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.
Support the show
ABOUT THE REMNANT RADIO: 
The Remnant Radio exists to equip believers who are hungry for the radical middle of both Word and Spirit. Subscribe for twice-weekly content on theology, church history and the gifts of the Spirit.
📧 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER
📚 COURSES & CONFERENCES
🛒 SHOP MERCH
💝 SUPPORT OUR MINISTRY:
• Leave a Tip
• Become a Patron
• Make a Tax-Deductible Donation 
 🌐📧 Check Out Our Church Pages
Josh's Church
Miller's Church
Rowntree's Church