The Behavioral Observations Podcast with Matt Cicoria

In this episode, I'm joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about leadership through a behavioral lens. John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing leadership literature is vague, mentalistic, or disconnected from observable behavior.
We start by talking about the need to operationalize leadership in behavioral terms and explore the four leadership hats developed by Dr. Paulie Gavoni: leading, training, coaching, and managing. We break down what each of these roles looks like behaviorally, how they function across time, and why effective leaders need to move flexibly between them rather than relying on a single style.
A major theme of the episode is the role of positive reinforcement in leadership. John shares real-world examples from his OBM coursework and his work at Cornerstone Behavioral Services, highlighting how difficult—but necessary—it can be to shift away from punitive and avoidance-based management strategies. We discuss why punishment often "works" in the short term, why leaders continue to rely on it, and how reinforcement-based leadership creates better outcomes for both staff and organizations.
We also spend time unpacking the distinction between leadership and management. John reflects on his own strengths and limitations, describing how he focuses on vision and direction while intentionally surrounding himself with strong managers who excel at systems, logistics, and follow-through. This leads to a powerful discussion about positional authority, seniority, and the myth that leadership status entitles people to treat others poorly.
Throughout the episode, we return to the importance of psychological safety, consistent feedback, and emotional regulation in leadership roles. John shares practical strategies for navigating tough conversations, including how to balance empathy with accountability, how to manage staff expectations, and how to avoid letting emotion drive professional communication (including when not to send that email).
We also talk through concrete tools and exercises for improving leadership practice, such as symbolic problem-solving activities to surface unspoken team issues, written acknowledgment systems, and using assessment tools like the Performance Diagnostic Checklist to guide supervision and coaching. John closes by sharing future directions for developing empirically grounded management assessment tools, along with a preview of his upcoming work and conference presentations.
This is a practical, honest conversation for anyone supervising staff, leading teams, or trying to build reinforcing, values-consistent organizations in human services.
Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode
RBT Course for Adult Services (the 'bridge' course too!)

Sims and Szilagyi (1975). Leader reward behavior and subordinate satisfaction and performance

Stone Soup Conference Registration (use code PODCAST26 at checkout)

Carr and Wilder (2015). The Performance Diagnostic Checklist—Human Services

John's previous BOP appearances

Session 274: Psychological Safety in the Workplace (Supervision CEU!)

Additional Books, Articles, and Ideas Discussed
John's books on Amazon

Komaki (1998). Leadership from an Operant Perspective

McGregor (1960). The Human Side of Enterprise

Daniels and Daniels (2023). The Measure of a Leader

Elliot (2012). Leading Apple With Steve Jobs: Management Lessons From a Controversial Genius

Covey (2020). The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, 30th Anniversary Edition

Harley (2013). How to Say Anything to Anyone

Grenny et al. (2021). Crucial Conversations (Third Edition): Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High

Sponsor shoutouts!
Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more!

HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.

The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26

Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!

The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.

CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here.

In Session 320, I sit down with Landon Cowan and Tiffany Kodak to talk about an area of behavior analysis that doesn't get nearly enough attention: professional (or "soft") skills.
We spend a lot of time in our field teaching and refining technical, clinical, or "hard" skills—and for good reason. But far less time is devoted to the interpersonal, communication, and problem-solving skills that ultimately determine how effective we are as clinicians, supervisors, and collaborators. In this conversation, Landon and Tiffany share their research aimed at identifying, defining, and measuring these professional skills, along with some eye-opening findings about where skill gaps exist.
🔍 What We Cover in This Episode
How hard skills differ from professional (soft) skills in behavior analysis

Why professional skills are so difficult to define, measure, and systematically teach

How Landon and Tiffany developed a comprehensive professional skills survey for behavior analysts

The challenges of survey design, including question format, length, readability, and pilot testing

Results from a survey completed by 189 ABA supervisors, including:
Which skills supervisees demonstrate most frequently

Which skills supervisors rate as most important for career advancement

A significant gap between the importance of problem-solving skills and how often they're actually demonstrated


Why solution-based problem identification and independent problem solving emerged as key areas for improvement

A surprising finding that many supervisors report feeling confident teaching these skills despite identifying major skill deficits

How Behavioral Skills Training (BST) can be used to effectively teach professional skills

Why the field needs clearer operational definitions and better data collection to build a stronger literature base

Practical advice for BCBA trainees and early-career BCBAs around self-assessment, feedback, and ongoing professional development

🎯 Key Takeaways
This episode reinforces something many of us already suspect: professional skills matter—a lot. In many cases, they're just as important (if not more important) than technical expertise when it comes to supervision, leadership, and long-term success in the field. Developing these skills requires intentional training, honest self-reflection, and a commitment to continuous learning. My hope is that this conversation helps push our field toward doing a better job of teaching, measuring, and valuing the skills that make behavior analysts more effective in the real world.
Resources and Links
Dr. Kodak's faculty page at Marquette University.

Dr. Cowan's LinkedIn page.

Cowan and Kodak (2024). Professional Skills for Behavior Analysts: A Survey on the Proficiency and Importance of Hard and Soft Skills.

LeBlanc, Taylor, and Marchese (2019). The Training Experiences of Behavior Analysts: Compassionate Care and Therapeutic Relationships with Caregivers.

Taylor, LeBlanc, and Nosik (2018). Compassionate Care in Behavior Analytic Treatment: Can Outcomes be Enhanced by Attending to Relationships with Caregivers?

The Stone Soup Conference (use promo code PODCAST26 to save at registration).

Sommers-Flanagan and Sommers-Flanagan (2023). Clinical Interviewing.

Carroll, Preas, and Paden (2022). Training supervisors to provide performance feedback using video modeling with voiceover instructions: A replication.

Sponsor shoutouts!
Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more!

Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out!

The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26!

The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.

CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all the time, so check them out here.

Don't adjust your podcast player folks, you have the right show. Welcome to Session 319 of the Behavioral Observations Podcast. If you've been listening for a bit, you know what's coming. If you're new to the show however, first, welcome and thanks for listening.
Every year, I team up with my friends from the ABA Inside Track Podcast to do a Year In Review episode. We've tinkered with the format over time, but for this one, we talk briefly about the trends and issues that we thought were important in 2025. From there, we discussed some of the most downloaded shows from our podcasts this year and speculate as to why these ones resonated so much.
We close the show talking about how both of our shows are turning 10 years old very soon. So we look back on what we've learned over a decade of podcasting!
Today's episode is brought to you by,
 
·      Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out!
·       HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.
·      The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26!
·      Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Sarah Frampton, who conducts research on, amongst other things, improving how we teach, learn, and organize information using behavior-analytic strategies. We explore her career journey, her research on graphic organizers and the Cover, Copy, Compare (CCC) strategy, and the broader implications for stimulus equivalence, educational technology, and effective teaching.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
How Sarah's unconventional path led her from economics and psychology into Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA).
Why note-taking and structured learning strategies, like CCC, matter for retaining and applying complex information.
How stimulus equivalence principles can enhance learning beyond direct instruction.
Insights from Sarah's research combining CCC with graphic organizers, including practical takeaways for educators and learners (see Frampton, Vesely and Jackson, 2025).
How visual learning tools and educational technology can improve engagement and retention.
Strategies for training learners to use these approaches independently and effectively.
Highlights From Our Conversation:
Sarah's Path Into ABA
Sarah shares how a thesis requirement and a Craigslist job posting led her to ABA, including formative experiences working with Dr. Alice Shillingsburg at the Marcus Autism Center. These experiences sparked her interest in efficient, broadly applicable learning strategies.
Why Note-Taking Strategies Matter
We discuss the value of graphic organizers and the Cover, Copy, Compare (CCC) strategy:
Graphic organizers visually display relationships between concepts.
CCC is a structured, active-response method that strengthens memory, similar to flashcards.
Sarah emphasizes how behavior-analytic techniques can support higher-order thinking processes often considered "cognitive."
CCC and Stimulus Equivalence
Sarah walks through stimulus equivalence with clear examples, showing how teaching certain relations can produce broader learning without direct instruction. She also highlights a study where CCC and graphic organizers helped learners prepare for tests—even under intentionally challenging conditions.
Graphic Organizers in Action
Key findings from Sarah's research:
Learners who drew more structured organizers performed better.
Teaching organizer use during test conditions did not hinder performance.
Visualizing relationships among stimuli predicted task success.
Training Learners to Use These Strategies
Sarah outlines her training sequence, including pre-tests, video instruction, practice with familiar material, and application to abstract stimuli. A core goal was strategy generalization—ensuring learners could apply CCC to new material independently.
Fig. 1 from Frampton, et al. (2025)
Fig. 2 from Frampton, et al. (2025)
Research Findings
Most participants quickly mastered abstract relations and passed post-tests after brief training. Notably, all participants used the CCC strategy—some even more meticulously than required.
Educational Technology, Engagement, and Mediation
Participants reported the educational technology intervention was easy to use and helpful, contrasting with high dropout rates in similar studies. Sarah also describes how participants naturally used private verbal behavior, such as naming stimuli or creating stories, to aid learning.
Visual Learning Tools in ABA
We discuss the broader application of visual supports—graphic organizers, flashcards, handwriting—and their role in enhancing learning efficiency for both adults and children with autism.
Looking Ahead
Sarah previews her upcoming presentation at the Verbal Behavior Conference, covering generative learning and assessment tools. We also explore how collaboration and community can reduce burnout and increase long-term job satisfaction in ABA in the "advice for the newly-minted" segment.
Resources & Links
Session 287: BiDirectional Naming with Caio Miguel.
Session 80: Verbal Behavior and Relational Frame Theory, with David Palmer and Josh Pritchard.
Shillingsburg, et al. (2016). A Preliminary Procedure for Teaching Children with Autism to Mand for Social Information.
Frampton and Linehan (2024). The effects of a training package to teach note taking on the formation of equivalence classes.
Sponsor shoutouts!
Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you've struggled with software that's buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you're not alone. That's why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more!
Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out!
MindBodyBehavior's Certified Health Coach Program. If you're a BCBA looking to use your ABA skills to help people live healthier lifestyles, learn how to do it the right way, with expert instruction, mentoring, and guidance from Sarah Burby. Better still, podcast listeners can save $$$ by using the code BOP10 at check out. Click here to learn more!
The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26!
The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.

In Session 317, I sit down with Dr. Francesca Delia Espinoza to revisit one of the most foundational—but often misunderstood—topics in behavior analysis: eye contact. We explore why eye contact shouldn't be treated as a simple objective, but instead understood within its broader social and developmental context.
Francesca explains how eye contact is better re-framed as "eye-looking," and why behavior analysts need a strong conceptual foundation for evaluating when, how, and why to teach it. We discuss her recent paper in Perspectives on Behavior Science, which encourages practitioners to analyze the controlling variables behind eye contact rather than relying on rote teaching procedures.
We then shift into the role of eye contact in autism development and early intervention. Francesca discusses how deviations in gaze behavior can influence a child's learning trajectory, and why early, naturally occurring social contingencies can make such a significant difference. We also touch on the potential aversiveness of eye contact for some individuals, and how to navigate that ethically and effectively.
Our conversation expands into related research on social media, gaze avoidance, and how adults and children with autism engage differently with eye-related cues online. Francesca also talks about her Substack newsletter, "What Darwin Taught Me," which blends behavioral science with accessible and engaging writing.
From there, we explore her creative work in conceptual fiction, including her "Aura" series from her Substack Newsletter — a not-too-distant science-fiction world where behavior analysts work alongside AI systems that analyze sessions, generate programs, and support day-to-day clinical tasks. This leads us into a broader discussion about the role of AI in applied behavior analysis, including its promises, limitations, and the importance of preserving hands-on clinical expertise.
Francesca describes one of the short stories in the Aura series about behavior analysts who travel to developing countries, only to realize their reliance on technology becomes a liability when the systems fail. It's a striking reminder that behavior change happens in real time, and nothing replaces skilled human interaction.
We close by reflecting on how emerging technologies—AI, automation, and digital platforms—might shape the future of ABA for better or worse.
Resources and References Mentioned:
Francesca's Substack: "What Darwin Taught Me" (Aura storyline here)
Stromberg, et al. (2025). Shaping Social Eye Contact in Children With Autism Via Telehealth: A Parent-Implemented Intervention
Skinner (1986): "What Is Wrong With Daily Life in the Western World?"
The Craft of Applied Behavior Analysis: Session 181 with Francesca Degli Espinosa
Eye Contact, Joint Attention, and Autism: Session 238 with Francesca Degli Espinosa
Cline (2012). Ready Player One (pro tip: skip the movie, read the book)
The Matrix
Sponsor Shoutouts!
Frontera. Consider taking a demo of Frontera's Assessment Builder and see how the ethical application of AI technologies can help you serve clients and save you time! Your first assessment report is free. And if you use code BOP25 you'll get an additional five assessments for just $100. So head to fronterahealth.com to check it out!
MindBodyBehavior's Certified Health Coach Program. If you're a BCBA looking to use your ABA skills to help people live healthier lifestyles, learn how to do it the right way, with expert instruction, mentoring, and guidance from Sarah Burby. Better still, podcast listeners can save $$$ by using the code BOP10 at check out. Click here to learn more!
HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.
The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26!
Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!
The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.