The Burnt Toast Podcast

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel!
Today we are talking about former restaurant critic turned diet crusader Pete Wells—and why the New York Times always spends January turning into a women's magazine from hell.
CW for discussions of intentional weight loss and lazy fat jokes (from Pete), including some that are offensive to both humans and bassett hounds.
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Episode 229 Transcript
Corinne
Ugh. That's all I can muster.
Virginia
And it's not a new ugh. They do this every January, guys. We have to emotionally prepare ourselves—those of us who still have an admittedly increasingly problematic subscription to The New York Times—we have to emotionally prepare ourselves that every January they become like Cosmo from 2004, and do this ridiculous weight loss challenge bullshit. And it's so odd and misaligned with actual journalism. 
OK, so dd you see the piece that came out like two days ago?
Corinne
“Our Former Restaurant Critic Changed His Eating Habits, You Can, Too?"
Virginia
The before and after journey of Pete Wells.
Corinne
I sure did see it. I mean, my first thought was... the food looks good. 
Virginia
Food does look good. 
Corinne
I might be making some of these recipes. And guess what? I'll still be fat.
Virginia
Virginia comes in hot and angry. Corinne...angry, but also willing to make a delicious chickpea dish?
Corinne
I'm definitely going to eat this. But don't get me wrong, also very angry.
Virginia
One of the listeners said in the chat today, Why does New York Times Cooking do this to me? They have good recipes and then they have to,take this weird turn. Like, just make good recipes. That's what you do. That's what we pay for. We just want the pretty food pictures and the useful recipes. We don't want this. We don't need this. 
Corinne
Articles like this are literally putting people off the recipes.
Virginia
Before we talk about the current "Reset Your Appetite" challenge, and the way he's talking about his story now, we'll just quickly back up for people who blessedly missed this whole thing. 
Pete Wells is a former restaurant critic for the New York Times. And last July he wrote a piece titled, "After 12 years of Reviewing Restaurants, I'm Leaving the Table." It was all about how the job had made him fat, and so he couldn't be a restaurant critic anymore because he felt bad about being fat.
Wells talked a lot about his own health issues, too. He said, “my cholesterol, blood sugar and hypertension were worse than I expected. The terms pre diabetes, fatty liver disease and metabolic syndrome were thrown around.” 
And sure, that is all upsetting, and a lot to deal with. But he blamed it all on his weight and then made all these really lazy fat jokes. He wrote, “I've decided to bow out as gracefully as my state of technical obesity will allow.” Which just, why? Why do you need to frame it like that? Fat people are graceful. Fuck you.
There's no need for talking about bodies in such a gross way. Even though he's making a joke about himself, which I'm sure makes him think it's okay.
Corinne
I mean, I hate it. It makes me feel really weird.
Virginia
It is really weird. It's like we're watching one man's midlife crisis just unfold in our nation's supposedly most reputable newspaper. 
Corinne
There is just something confusing about it, too. You wanted this job! Why can't you eat the way you want to eat? I don't know. He makes it sound like he's being force fed or something. 
Virginia
I do think restaurant reviewing is a job where you often have to eat even if you're not hungry. Like you have to taste things, right? He talked about how he was eating an average of 125 multi-course restaurant meals a year. Which is not how most of us eat.
Corinne
That is like, twice a week? I bet a lot of people go to restaurants twice a week. 
Virginia
But you don't necessarily get appetizers and cocktails and dessert every time, because you don't have to try the whole menu when you go. And let's see, 52 meals a year... it would be 104 if it was twice a week. So it's two to three times a week. 
Corinne
Okay. It's a lot.
Virginia
So I agree there's an open question of: Did eating this way take a toll on his health? Possibly. Does he need to make it all about his weight and make lazy fat jokes? He doesn't. We don't need to do that. And do you need to tell America that the reason you're quitting your job is because of health reasons? I don't know that this was news. A lot of people quit jobs after 12 years. I don't care.
Corinne
And a lot of people quit job for jobs for health reasons, and then don't write weight loss stories. 
Virginia
That was the other layer to this piece last year that really bugged me. He talked to other former restaurant critics, including Adam Platt, who was at New York Magazine for a really long time. And Adam Platt called the job "the least healthy job in America." I'm sorry, sir. You are not an underwater welder. You are not working at coal mines.
Corinne
Professional athletes come to mind, too. Football players. 
Virginia
The least healthy job in America? You get to eat in beautiful, comfortable places. You get to expense the cab ride home. You're not being underpaid. You're not being abused. You're not being forced to have sex against your will to stay employed. You're not being held captive in a workplace.
There are a lot of jobs that are less healthy than this, sir. And just the total lack of acknowledgement of that privilege made me insane. I find it just so exasperating. 
Another great quote from Platt:
"Your body changes over time. You have this giant distended belly which wants to be filled. All those weird sensors in your brain that cry out for deliciousness are at DEF CON one all day, you become an addict."
 It's just such a dramatic—and again, super anti-fat— way of talking about your experience with a career which brought you...a lot of success and financial privilege.
Corinne
It's troubling.
Virginia
So that is the back story. 
Corinne
A successful white man thought he was fat and decided to quit his job.
Virginia
He felt bad about his body, so he quit his job. That was the tragedy that befell Pete Wells. And now he's back, Corinne! Because he lost 60 pounds in a year!
Corinne
"An entire basset hound." Doesn't he say that?
Virginia
Yes, I'm sorry. And trigger warning that we're using numbers. He's using numbers, we're just quoting. “Today, I'm about 55 pounds later than I was at my zenith, a loss roughly, roughly equivalent to dropping an entire male basset hound.” 
Is there nobody at The New York Times—I am truly asking, as someone who has written for this newspaper, been interviewed for this newspaper—is there not one editor in any of your departments who can spot anti-fat bias? Is there not one person in the copy editing department, or maybe one senior editor reading a draft of this, who would say, "Wow, this is wildly offensive, dehumanizing language to use about people's bodies?"
Corinne
Or notice how ableist It is against people with diabetes. Because that's what struck me when I read this.
Virginia
Yes, to Pete Wells, diabetes is a death sentence and a moral failing. It is the nightmare scenario he's desperate to avoid. 
And I'm not downplaying the stress of managing a chronic condition. But that is extremely offensive to the many millions of people who live functional, happy lives with diabetes.
Corinne
And who don't have a choice to focus all their energy on avoiding it and get a New York Times column to write about how they avoided it. 
Virginia
Let's talk about after he describes his "basset hound" weight loss. He then says:
"...Slimming down was not my main purpose. I never counted a single calorie. Somehow that took care of itself because of the new ways I started shopping, cooking and eating back then, and it more or less stuck to since.”
Corinne
I mean, could it get any more diet-y? You're selling us a diet.
Virginia
It's absolutely about slimming down. All you're talking about is how unhappy you were that you got fat. Obviously, you care about slimming down. Yes, you were worried about your biomarkers. But if that was all you were worried about, you would shut up about the basset hound! You would not use that phrase. It's so egregious.
What's also egregious is that this is the first of four articles Pete Wells will be writing on this theme. We are recording this on January 7. You are hearing it on January 22 which means by the time you listen, there have been two more atrocities that we can't even get into because we haven't read them yet. But I can bet they're crap!
Corinne
I think it's also kind of interesting to think about this whole thing within the greater GLP-1 era. He doesn't really say whether he's taking a GLP-1 or not, although it feels like he's implying that he's not? And with that, there is some kind of moral judgment.
Virginia
That struck me as well. This first article is all about how to break up with sugar. That's literally a headline in here. Which, again, they stole from a women's magazine from 2005. Like I wrote that! "Break Up With Sugar" is classic women's magazine bullshit. But okay, Pete Wells. When a white man writes it, we get to pretend it's real journalism. 
Corinne
Doesn't he also talk somewhere about how sugar makes you crazy?
Virginia
Yes, he writes: "And having raised two boys, I probably should have known that going through sugar overdrive many times a day was not producing the most rational behavior."
There have been multiple studies proving that sugar highs do not exist, that they do not cause hyperactivity. That is a myth. Restriction causes weird behavior. Deprivation causes weird behavior. Being told you can't have something you want to have causes kids to be cranky and irrational sometimes. But sugar itself doesn't do it. He's really light on actual scientific information. 
I also have to note the hypocrisy of being so proud he never counted a single calorie, and then he says, "Figure out whether you're getting more than 10% of your total calories from added sugar, which should be the maximum intake."
So you have to count some calories to figure out that number. It's all just the classic diet industry playbook. "It's not a diet. You don't have to count calories...Fine Print: Actually, you're gonna have to do a lot of math and be really stringent about your intake." It is a diet, completely. 
Corinne
it feels like an old guy who's realizing that his time on the planet is limited and he doesn't want to deal with the fact that he's not going to be around forever.He doesn't like his body and then tries to adjust what he's eating without counting anything. And then loses weight and then writes a column about it.
Virginia
It's very like... I was about to say big dick energy, and I think I'm going to stand by that?
It's the hubris of "This thing worked for me. I effortlessly lost weight. So now all of America, you should do that, too."
Because I'm assuming, as a restaurant critic, Pete Wells is pretty handy in the kitchen. He has a nice, generous grocery shopping budget. Since he stepped down from a very time-consuming job, he might have more leisure time with which to make Millet with Corn and Mango and Shrimp, which is one of the recipes. 
But this is all very much in the tradition of how white guys at The New York Times talk about food. It's very Michael Pollan. It's very Mark Bittman. They all want cooking and eating to be this luxurious aesthetic experience that also makes them effortlessly thin and healthy. 
And they never really want or need to think about how the labor of making food and feeding people fits into actual lives.
Corinne
Well, and it's supposed to be so effortless, but—he literally had to quit his job in order to do it.
Virginia
And devote himself to this whole new way of eating and living in order to have these amazing changes that he's now touting as so doable and easy for anyone to try. If only we all just want to make Roasted Broccoli and Chickpeas with Mole Verde Sauce...which Corinne maybe does.
Corinne
I mean, as I said, the recipes do look good to me. But they don't look like something I'd be throwing together for lunch.
Virginia
I'm looking into it...the roasted broccoli and chickpeas dish says total time is 50 minutes. That's a lot to pull off on a weeknight. I don't have that much time to cook dinner on a weeknight.
Corinne
What's he eating for lunch? Because I just opened my fridge and ate a plastic wrapped piece of cheese.
Virginia
Listeners don't need the full back story, but we had some extreme technical difficulties today, and before continuing this conversation, I stood in my kitchen and ate a spoonful of Nestle cookie dough straight out of the fridge.
Corinne
That was me with plastic wrapped cheese. 
Virginia
I was like, Enough of this day. This is what this needs. There was probably more than 10% added sugar in the cookie dough. I'm going to guess. And that might be the difference between me and Pete Wells. But I am going to cook dinner tonight, and I am going to cook something with vegetables. It's just not going to take me an hour to cook it.
We can have both, is my point. He's like, "Either you're a glutton who's eating uncontrollably, or you're living this life of Sheet Pan Coconut Curry with Squash and tofu." There's no in between.
Corinne
There's no world in which I follow Pete Wells's diet and end up weighing the same as Pete Wells.
Virginia
Great point. 
Corinne
It's just not going to happen. Yeah, the recipes look great. And that's not how my body works.
Virginia
You are two different humans with different experiences of being in bodies.
Corinne
I'm also a lot fatter than Pete Wells, and I don't eat four teaspoons of sugar in my coffee, you know?
Virginia
Yes, there's a one-to-one-ness. He describes what he considers to be an extreme eating habit—putting four teaspoons of sugar in your coffee—and then he's like, "That explains why I couldn't get out of my car." But it's not a one-to-one. Lots of people are fatter than you and don't eat that way. Lots of people are thinner than you, and eat more sugar. And again, can we not need to lean so far into the ableism and the fatphobia with your descriptions of your experience in your body?
Corinne
The blood sugar stuff really riles me up. He writes, "Sweet potatoes are called sweet for a reason, but I don't think twice about eating one for dinner, because they're fairly gentle on blood sugar.” Did you test your blood sugar before and after? Like, how do you know that? You're just parroting something you saw on Tiktok?
Virginia
He's like, this Tiktok gym bro seems fine with sweet potatoes, so I guess they're good for me.
Let's also note he was only ever pre-diabetic, which is a term that's murky at best. A lot of folks get fear-mongered about pre-diabetes who are not actually on the cusp of diabetes. We don't know, that's Pete's business. His body, his choice. It's just the need to mansplain to the rest of us and develop an entire month-long eating plan series. That's what we're balking against.
If he was unhappy with his experience as a restaurant critic, I'm glad he's made some changes that make him feel happier in his life. But he does not need to lay it out in this way, to use this incredibly offensive language to talk about bodies while he works through his own personal demons there. We don't need it. I hate it a lot. 
What do you think is going to be in the next few weeks since we're recording this right at the start?
Corinne
I am So curious. I have no idea. 
Virginia
I feel like I have some ideas. 
Corinne
Okay, tell me.
Virginia
Protein. 
Corinne
Okay, yep, yeah. Sorry, my bad. Protein. Obviously protein.
Virginia
He's got to do a protein week. If this was the breakup with sugar week. I think there is going to be a get married to protein week.
Okay, what else do I think? Oh, ultra processed foods. He's going to do a week on getting rid of ultra processed foods. And how would we like to round it out? Let's see, what else do we have on our diet industry bingo card? It's just food, so he's probably not going to get into weightlifting.
Corinne
Well, I think fiber, but that's kind of in this one, right?
Virginia
Yeah, fiber could round it out. 
Corinne
I'm feeling fiber is having a moment? 
Virginia
Well, I think that'll be fun to see as these columns continue to come out over the months.
[Post-recording note: Our predictions were off! Pete went more retro with this piece on shopping the perimeter of your grocery store, and this one on mindful eating, again mining mid-2000s women's mags for cutting edge advice.]
Corinne
We should do like a little Pete Wells bingo.
Virginia
Every time he says something fatphobic—oh, wait, your whole card is full. Everyone has bingo.
Well, I'm glad we got to rant about this. I hope this is cathartic for folks, because, this is a real piece of garbage journalism in a newspaper that is increasingly going downhill, but really likes to reach new lows every time it can. 
I want to hear what folks think. And you know, if this was a whole new to you topic, don't go read it. I will gift link the article, but it's fine. You don't have to give them clicks if you don't want to is what I would say. 
Corinne
Good advice. 
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Butter
Virginia
All right, let's bring it up with a Butter.
Corinne
All right, I'm going to Butter a book that I just finished reading. It's called The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny. 
I started listening to it on my drive up to Oregon and finished it on the drive back. It's pretty long and kind of slow at times. But in the end, I really loved it. It's a romance, intergenerational story of their lives, kind of thing that takes place between India and the United States and some other places. There is kind of like a mystical element, but it's very beautiful, and I would definitely recommend it if people are looking for a long read.
Virginia
Okay, your book recs are always good.
Corinne
Yeah, might be good for your book club.
Virginia
I'm going to do a book Butter, too! I think you would really like this one. It's called The Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett.
This is why I feel very confident with this recommendation: Kate Baer told me to read this book so it's a Butter for me and Kate Baer so, you know, that's two solid votes. She recommended it to my book club.
It's about this man PJ, in his 60s. He is estranged from his wife and his daughter. This is not a spoiler alert, but it is a trigger warning: One of his children has died, and he's still processing the grief of that loss. But I don't usually read books where kids die, and I could handle this book. So that's your context.
He's also a like, raging alcoholic and a lottery winner, and through a variety of circumstances, he ends up acquiring these two orphaned children, and then they all go on a road trip together across America with a cat named Pancakes.
And it's just, like, incredibly heartwarming and beautiful and funny and sad and all of the things. It's a very specific style and I really, really loved it. I couldn't put it down. I finished it, like, two weeks ago, and I still keep thinking about the characters.
Corinne
Well, I'll definitely be reading that. 
Virginia
I think you would really like it.
So everybody read some good books, and don't worry about Pete Wells. And I think that's how we get through the rest of January.
Corinne
Don't go on the Pete Wells Diet.
Virginia
Truly, don't. I mean, or make the chickpea thing if it sounds good to you, but like, live your life. Don't get caught up in his nonsense. 
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with the one and only Melani Sanders.
Melani is a digital creator and the fearless founder of the We Do Not Care movement. If you are a woman in your 40s, 50s and beyond, you are very likely already in this club. Melani's viral club meeting videos, where she runs down a list of everything "We just do not care about anymore," are the kind of thing that my friends are constantly sharing and dropping in our group chats, and I'm sure it's the same for you. 
Melani perfectly articulates the pressures we're under, and when she names it, it feels easier to let it go. So I loved this conversation.
Welcome to the Burnt Toast chapter of the We Do Not Care Club. Let's get this meeting started.
If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!
Join Burnt Toast!
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Episode 228 Transcript
Melani
Hello and welcome to all members of the We Do Not Care Club. I started this club for all women in perimenopause, menopause and post menopause. We are putting the world on notice that we simply just do not care much anymore. This is a special body liberation edition. Yay.
Virginia
I'm so thrilled to have you here. I just love your work, and I'm a huge fan. So thank you for doing this.
Melani
Thank you for having me. 
Virginia
Well, you just kind of exploded into all of our lives in the last year. Where did the We Do Not Care Club come from? What's the origin story?
Melani
This was something that happened by chance. I was at Whole Foods in the parking lot. I was waiting on Whole Foods to open up because I was out of ashwagandha. Ashwagandha has been a huge part of my perimenopause journey. It is my prerequisite to life, that and coffee and a few other things. I got to have that. It helps me to feel more stable. I realized I didn't have any more. I woke up, and I keep it on my nightstand, and I turned the bottle over to look for some. And I pulled the cotton stuff out, and I said, 'Oh, crap.' And it was about seven something in the morning. They weren't open until eight. I was in the parking lot when it opened. When I got back in the car, I popped open my ashwagandha. I took the ashwagandha, and I looked at myself in the mirror. I honestly just didn't care much anymore. I didn't comb my hair. Everything was unstructured. I had on a bra that was half the size of my boobs, and it was, it was all out of order. And I didn't care that I didn't care. 
And I thought, I'd been a creator for a while, for over four years. And I said, 'You know what? Maybe I could start a club called a We Do Not Care Club.' And I hit record and I asked, "Did anyone else out there feel the way that I did, and if so, join me. Join the club." And sure enough, by the time I got home from hitting that record button, my phone was blowing up. It was blowing up. The notifications: "Absolutely, I want to join, I want to join. I want to join." Yeah, I'm in it, I'm in it.
And sure enough, my platform grew to maybe about 500,000. The WDNC is at 6 million now, across all platforms. 
Virginia
Unbelievable.  
Melani
I was gaining hundreds of thousands of followers per day. 
Virginia
Oh, my God. How are you? Because that's a huge shift in your life.
Melani 
Yes. In the beginning, I was very scared. I've freely shared emotionally what this is doing for me, mentally, all of it. I'm just openly sharing because I'm just a girl in perimenopause, and I hit record as it was happening. I didn't quite understand it, because when you get new followers, it's like, 'Oh, I got 100 new followers. Yay. That video did well.'
But when you look and you're gaining hundreds of thousands of followers per day, it's like, 'What is going on?' I was trying to be sure, like, did something else come up besides this video? But then, typically, I'll post and I’ll post on several platforms at one time, and they were all going viral. 
They were just going. So it scared me. And honestly, in the beginning I ran because I wasn't the content creator that showed up every day doing a lot of content. Sometimes I don't post for a week or so. 
Virginia
You're living your life. 
Melani
Yeah, I'm living my life. I'm not stuck to my phone or to social media. I got very nervous, because look at me running my big mouth. I started a club and now I'm not even all there. I don't even know who I am most days. So how's this going to work out? 
I think I've migrated from scary to just a bit nervous. You know, this is the internet, and there are so many things that are so out of the box. It's very surreal. Very surreal.
Virginia
Well, I feel like it blew up because you voiced something that so many of us are experiencing and didn't know how to voice. It's a good kind of blowing up. You're giving voice to this thing, women's experiences in our 40s and 50s and beyond are not talked about. It's not made visible at all. But I can imagine it's, yeah, coming with quite a cost to you personally. So thank you for your service on behalf of all of us.
Melani
Well, thank you. The one thing I do want to add is that I feel as time has gone on, I've felt like I was meant to do this, if that makes sense. As I cry openly. I cut my computer off for a while. I really just examined everything that was going on in the sisterhood, all of the comments like, what do they see? What do they hear? And to your point, just being able to say things out loud. I'm getting stronger in that. But before this happened, balance was something that I really, really, really tried to master, if that makes sense. And just paying attention to Melani and what it is I need. I was on this journey before WDNC started. So now that I'm here, it's like I can apply all of those things that I have been trying to do to make my life better. I'm able to take that and put it into WDNC.
Virginia
One of the themes of your content that resonates with me really deeply, and I think with the Burnt Toast listeners, something we're always talking about is how to let go of perfectionism and these expectations that are put on us as women, as moms, especially around cooking and other domestic labor. One of my favorite entries on the list recently was 'We do not care if we said we were cooking dinner this morning. That was this morning's energy, and this afternoon is different.' And I was like, yes, that is how I feel today. Thank you. 
Melani
Absolutely. That was when the coffee was hot.
Virginia
Does naming these specific things that you want to let go of, does that actually help you let go of those expectations for yourself?
Melani
Yes. The announcements are comprised of me and my thoughts, but also the sisterhood. I take a lot of the content from that. So collectively, if our sisters don't care about that, then we don't care about it either. And yes, it definitely does. 
What really helps is just we are all high fiving each other, and it's like, like you just said about the kitchen and cooking and all of that. Yeah, it feels good to know I'm not the only one.
Virginia
We're all not cooking dinner tonight.
Melani
If you're hungry, the kitchen's not locked. Figure it out. Figure it out. We got stuff to figure out.
Virginia
The main thing at Burnt Toast that we don't care about is diet culture. We are trying to make peace with the bodies we have now. We are trying not to keep chasing the dreams of the bodies we maybe used to have, or never had, but thought we should have. What are some of your favorite body related things to stop caring about?
Melani
One, and I speak about this in the book, in The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook, is my arms. It's one thing that I have been so… I've kept my arms covered up, no tank tops, for years. I have a 24 year old, and when I when I got pregnant with him, my body stretched out a lot, and I got a ton of stretch marks on my arms, and then I ended up having surgery some years later, under my arm, so I just felt like it just looked bad. And I covered it up for a very long time. 
And after starting the We Do Not Care Club, I really just started to take inventory to be sure that I'm living up to what I'm saying. And I said, 'You know what? I'm about to go put on one of them tank tops, and I'm going to go to TJ Maxx.' And so I walked into TJ Maxx with my tank top on, and I looked around, and I'm trying to figure out who you know. I know they're looking, they're judging, and nobody really gave a damn about my arms. I'm the one that cared so much. So now it is what it is, darling.
Virginia
Everybody deserves to not be hot and sweaty. Tank tops are great.
Melani
Especially in midlife, tank tops are life. You look at how many years--my son is, 24 years old, and I went through all of this time, and it was in that moment where it's like, 'Girl, don't nobody care. You better show your arms.'
Virginia
You have a right to show your arms. It’s just a body. 
Melani
It sounds so easy, but mentally for many of us, it's not. We know we will judge ourselves. We're waiting to be judged. We're comparing ourselves, and it's like the hell with all of that. 
Virginia
It's true that there are times body things do get commented on. One of mine is the way I gain weight. I get mistaken for pregnant quite often. I carry my weight in my midsection and it's this awkward moment that for years, I was like, 'Oh God, am I going to look pregnant in this dress? Someone's going to say something. It's going to be this weird conversation.' And then I was like, 'Well, that's on them for saying the rude thing to talk about.' If they feel uncomfortable in that moment that is not my problem to worry about. They're the ones commenting on someone's body when they shouldn't be. And that really turned that around for me.
Melani
Yeah, exactly. The one thing that I really focus on now as I study the sisterhood is empathy. I have this saying, and the saying is, 'If our sister's coochie is dry, then we all have dry coochie.' And it pretty much means that her story is our story, and not everyone has that quick confidence or that ability to just turn it off. You know how some things just come so easy to some people, and it's like, it sounds so good, but then it's discouraging, because it's like, 'Damn, why can't I just let go of these insecurities?'
I'm okay with being vulnerable. I'm okay with it. It's fine, although I still do have my insecurities, such as showing my arms. But I think together, just being able to share this stuff, we get stronger together. 
You know what I was going to do, and I might still do it. I think I'm going to go live and I'm just going to sit up there and show my arms, my under arms. 
Virginia
I love that. 
Melani
You think? Well, seriously, I think I'm going to do that, and then, or maybe I can start a challenge or something, and it's like, post what you're most embarrassed about? And then I'm normalized, yeah, let's not, let's normalize it. How about it? Yeah, wow. I had coffee earlier, so I'll probably just wear out in a little while. But the inspiration is there now. No, seriously.
Virginia
We're recording at 9 A.M. There are a lot of big dreams.
Melani
Yeah, by 5 P.M., it's like, 'No, not doing it. Get out my face.'
Virginia
Don't want to show the internet my arms today. 
Melani
That's dumb.
Virginia
But I love the intention behind it. And you're right. I think it's making space for 'we are allowed to show these parts of our bodies and not feel shame' and not downplaying actually how difficult that is in a world that's been throwing us these messages our whole lives. You didn't think of the idea that you should feel bad about your arms, that's a society wide message that you've been fed since you were a little girl. So it is really hard work to stand up against that, and not every day is a day to challenge the patriarchy in that way.
Melani
Yeah, exactly. No. I was joking, but I do think I am going to do that. I think I'm going to start a challenge, and I think that that's going to be good.
Virginia
I think it's a great idea. So you mentioned the book, The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook. Would love to hear a little more about this. The main thing I know is that the dedication is to the asshole who told you you had a computer box booty. So I read that and was like, 'Okay, well, I'm ordering it for everyone I know.'
Melani
Yeah, that was the intention behind it, for sure. And I wanted to preface it with that, we can have some words in it, but it's a bit of fun. It's what Melani is, and what I'm comprised of is there's a very humorous side to me, there's a very serious side to me, and then there's this educational part to it. 
So I think that we have to be sure, as we're going through this stage of life, in perimenopause and beyond that we can definitely say what we don't care about, but then we also need to have intention about what we do care about. Let's have fun with it. Let's have fun with it and talk about why we do not care what the back of our hair looks like. It's the front that matters. That's what we can see, and being able to be okay with that. But then, we have to still just kind of pay attention to how that affects us mentally. Like, we do not care if our room is junky, but at some point we want to be able to clean up that room and to dive into it a little bit. 
So it's just bits and pieces of some fun. Some pieces where it's like, 'Come on, girl, let's get up girlfriend.'
And I'm sharing this through my own personal journey, from childhood to where I am now, and how I put over the years, a lot of expectations on myself, and now that I've reached midlife, it's like, as we said, the kitchen is not locked. That was a priority when I was raising a family and trying to be that perfect wife and make sure things are together. Now, it's like, 'Baby, I'm in survival mode. I don't give a damn about what y'all have going on over there right now.'
Reprioritizing is where we have to be, and be okay with it. We're at capacity. We're at capacity. Don't add anything else to our plate. If anything, take something off. So that is the gist of The We Do Not Care Club Handbook. 
Virginia
I think a lot of what you're articulating is this larger inequity. I don't see a man launching a We Do Not Care Club. I don't think they need it in the same way. I don't expect a midlife dad to because he's been getting to say 'we do not care' his whole life.
Melani
Since birth.
Virginia
Right. He's been allowed to not care. And I think what I love about what you're saying there is, like, we're allowed to say we do not care about these expectations. But we can care about ourselves. We can care about our own values. And it'll benefit us to clean up the room at some point. But doing it because people are coming over and they're going to judge us, that's a different conversation.
Melani
That is exactly what the We Do Not Care Club is. Because we just have to come to a reality, you know, and be honest with ourselves. Because the pressure is real. Nine times out of 10, most things that we're doing in life is like, we do it because of what it looks like or feels like to others versus how it looks or feels to ourselves. 
Just being able to just migrate to that mindset of not caring if my house looks like this. And you want to come to my house? This is how my house looks. If you have judgment, don't come. But if you want to clean up, go ahead, get the broom. 
But before this, I would be like, 'Oh no, they're coming over. Let me run and do this, and run and do that.' And it's like, why am I driving myself crazy? Yeah, I'm already not all there sometimes. 
Virginia
And if they're really your friends, they'll come and sit with you with the laundry basket, like they don't care. That's the other power of the sisterhood you're building is we're all saying to each other, 'Oh, wait, you don't care about that either. Oh, great. We don't have to be more expectations on each other.'
Melani
That's right. It feels so good when you can just be around someone and you're not worried about them judging you or comparing yourself to them, or vice versa, and just live. There's such quality in those type of friendships.
Virginia
My group of friends now in my 40s, is just everything. These are the women who, like, have held you through so many hard things in your life, who are like, we're showing up for each other, and especially now in this life stage with parents who are sick and dying, or teenagers going through their big feelings, just all these really, real things. I do not have time to care if my house is perfectly decorated for the holidays.
Melani
I'm so happy that you have those friends. I would say that I do, too, but so many of us don't. And hopefully in this sisterhood, we can find that connection with other like-minded sisters. And it's like, 'Hey, you can find your tribe here.'
Because we end up - the pressure, the stress of caring so much - many of us internalize that. I was reading about this with suicide. As far as the suicide rate, it's because there are all these bottled up feelings of comparison, rejection, and not being accepted, all of those things. And I just hope that this is opening up the door to be able to be okay with who you are, where you are, and what season you're in. It's okay.
Virginia
Part of the expectations game has been that you don't talk about what's really hard, right? Someone asks, 'How you doing?' You say, 'Oh, I'm fine.' 'Oh, hanging in there, you know.' And you don't really get into a real conversation. I think women are taught that we have to protect the marriage, protect the image of the perfect family, to the degree that then we don't let people in when things are hard and that's really dangerous.
Melani
It really can be. It really can be. And like you said, we're the nurturers, we're the protectors. Men are there, and thank you so much, men, but we have to really be the ones to keep it all together. And we're the ones typically that are falling apart.
Virginia
Is there anything you've let go of? You talked about the arms. I'm interested if there's any other things that you used to really put pressure on yourself to do that now you're like, 'I've fully stepped back from that.' And 'Wow, I can't believe I used to care so much about that.'
Melani
I think I'm a work in progress as it relates to not caring. I think it's more of a reminder, because subconsciously, I think we do a lot of things that we don't even realize that we're doing. Then it's like, once I sit with it, the quieter I become, the more empowered I become, and also the more aware I become. I think with me, body image has definitely been one. And maybe the clothes. I'm not really chic and aesthetic and I'm about to go on this tour. It's like, what am I going to wear? Because I got some jogging suits in there that I could throw on, you know? And I'm okay with that. 
Virginia
Be comfortable. 
Melani
Yeah, be comfortable. Some things I'm extremely vulnerable. I don't care. But, like I said, subconsciously, I don't even pay attention to some things that I might be a little bit ashamed about, or worrying what people think of. I was trying to think of an example. A lot of it comes around, like, cleanliness around the house. Like, my baseboards. I looked at them the other day, and I'm like, 'Good lord!' And then I kept walking.
Virginia
I don't consider the baseboards to be my business. They're on their own journey. 
Melani
They are. 
Virginia
They are not for me to know what they're doing. 
Melani
Yeah, that's their life. This is our life. 
Virginia
My eyes are up here. I'm not down there looking at them.
Melani
Yeah, stay in your lane. We stay in our lanes. And so that was a lane that I definitely bypassed and kept going because I can't care. One day.
Virginia
Fair enough. So you're publishing this book in January, and January is honestly, historically, a time of, like, so much caring, right? Like, this is when people are like, I'm going to start the diet, I'm going to start the new workout routine, I'm going to be a perfect, healthy individual and organize every closet. Was that deliberate to publish in January, to give us a little bit of an alternative? It’s like, you're giving us a really useful counter name, right?
Melani
This is going to be real helpful, right? 
Virginia
Yeah, I think people need to hear it in January most of all. No, you don't have to go so hard, like, pace yourself.
Melani
Yeah, pace yourself. And it's so funny. The word "pace." I started therapy last year and my therapist, she wanted to come up with a word with me. And every session I would go, I go weekly, every session I would go, and I could not come up with that word because a lot of them were so cliche, like "intentional" or "growth," or "finding," whatever it is. But when she came up with the word "pace," I said, 'That's it.' 
I mean, for sure, this year, I have told myself so many times you have to pace yourself, pace it. So, unintentionally that word is my word. But as it relates to the intention behind the date? Nope. 
This book got started in June. Harper Collins, they are under the Harvest imprint. They crashed this book. They crashed it. And it's like that, 'We need it. We want it bad. It needs to get out here.' And I was like, 'Okay, I don't know the first thing about writing a book, but I can run my mouth.'
Virginia
I'm not surprised they crashed it, having been in book publishing for a long time, I had a feeling that's what happened to you. It makes sense they want to get it out here right now, in this moment where we're having this conversation about your work. But I actually think the January timing is very smart. 
Melani
Yeah, I like that you said that.
Virginia
Usually by the end of January, everyone's exhausted because they spent the whole month trying to, like, not eat sugar and not drink any alcohol. I mean, maybe some people should not drink alcohol, but, like, they don't necessarily serve us to put all that pressure and external expectations on ourselves. So for you to be publishing a book that's like, 'Hey, here's another way to go.' I think it's brilliant timing.
Melani
I'm so glad. It's funny because I did not put those two together. Yeah, January is definitely the year to start over, new me, new year, new everything's going to be perfect. And then by February, it's like, okay, let's scale that back a little bit. Did I say that?
Virginia
January is morning energy.
Melani
Yeah, right, it is! I like that. January is morning. So, what is February? February, I think around noonish, we're on that decline.
Virginia
March is dinner, for sure. March is, we're ordering takeout. It's like, oh my god, winter's not over yet. And yeah, this is brutal. 
🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Butter
Virginia
Well, to wrap up Burnt Toast, we have a segment we call butter, which is where we each talk about something we've just been really loving lately. Like, what is buttering your toast right now? And it can be a TV show or a book or something. It can also just be, like, a color I love, or, something funny someone said, like, anything that's brought you a lot of joy recently.
Melani
Something I would say that I'm loving right now is Melani. When this journey first started for me on May the 13th of this year, I was extremely fearful, and I doubted myself, and I said it so many times, 'I'm not enough. I'm not enough.' I had to decide, Melani, if you're not going to be enough, just go sit down. Girl, just go sit down somewhere and be quiet.
Or it's like, you know what? Let's dive into this a little bit. And so I've decided that that is what I'm going to do. I'm not used to being at the front of the class. I'm used to being the person that's in the back of the class, or I'll be the one to get things together and definitely put that quality aspect behind it, and to be sure that we meet whatever goal needs to be met. 
I say I'm the sister that will hold the door for you and grab your pocketbook while you go up on that stage and do your thing. That is me. But I have had to to turn into this to do something different, and I'm being forced to challenge myself. And I wish that I had have had this kind of mindset, or this type of where it wasn't so forced some years ago, because that definitely would have been beneficial for me.
What makes me happy now is my mindset towards where I'm going. And you know this sisterhood and collectively how I mean when you go through the comments and you see things, it is the beauty. It's the beauty in high fiving each other. Nobody cares what color you are, what religion you are. What kind of car you drive, what kind of pocketbook you have, what size your waistline is. Who cares? And so it makes me so happy to see that without judgment. So the whole We Do Not Care Club, and I guess myself, and today on this show, actually - it will be the first time that I'm going to give myself my flowers.
Virginia
I love that you're giving yourself your flowers. You need them!
Melani
I'm going to cry a little bit. I mean, I am really. I am just, no, just really thinking. I'm so thankful. You know, I'm thankful, and I'm understanding my value more. But I'm frustrated a little, just because it took me being forced into the situation. And it's like, damn, I'm 45 you know? If I had to do this at 30? So I pray that younger generations like have that. You don't necessarily have to be forced in situations, you know? If you have that inner feeling or whatever, bring it out girl. Go stand at the front. When you're in the back, get out the back. Go get on that stage. Speak up. Speak up. 
Virginia
You don't always have to be the one who organizes behind. Yes, you actually get to have the moment too.
Melani
Yes, have that moment. And so I'm going to embrace this time. I'm going to do it scared.
Virginia
I just think, like, on behalf of everyone who admires you so much and feels like you've given us this gift. We want you to have this moment. Enjoy it. Like, enjoy it for all of us. You know, because you deserve it, and you've really created something super special that we really needed, so thank you.
Melani
I'm curious to hear yours.
Virginia
Well, I've just been thinking because I was coming to talk to you, and thinking about again, about the sisterhood and the power of all of this. I've given this one in the past on the podcast, but I'm going to give it again to my book club, which is my kind of core group of ladies. We just had book club last night, and one of our members, her mom just passed, and she was coming back from the celebration of life for her mom, and it just felt so good that we could be there to welcome her back with a lot of cheese and a cocktail. Because that's what she needed. It’s been a time, and that we could all like, be together. So I think female friendship - your best friends in your 40s, which is, I'm lucky to have a whole, tier of those people. 
Melani
Yes. And preferably within the sisterhood, the WDNC sisterhood, the bigger this movement becomes. I want to see us everywhere. In different rooms together. And as long as you hear WDNC, you know that this door is open and you can walk through it and you will not be judged.
We're all in this together. We're like I said, 'If our sister's coochie is dry, then we all have dry coochie.' It's her story. It's our story. We're in it together.
Virginia
Yes, I love that. Well, Melani, thank you so much. This was an incredible conversation. I'm so glad to have gotten to, yeah, get to know you and talk with you.
Melani
Absolutely. This was definitely an honor to even you know just everything that's happening, but to even be able to sit here with you, I definitely appreciate it, and I feel empowered like what you got a little magic power over here on Burnt Toast. What is that about? Good Lord.
Virginia
The Burnt Toast is where we're a small group, but we yeah -
Melani
Yeah, small but mighty, right? And any ideas or anything within the sisterhood? I want to welcome ideas. This is only the beginning. So if you have ideas, sisters, the We Do Not Care, Club dot com, there are going to be places where you can go and just put your ideas in. I'm having teams being built right now because I want all of us to be - just feel heard. Yeah, so, and I'm trying. I am trying my darndest. 
Virginia
Awesome. Well, we are rooting for you, and everyone needs to go get the book, The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook. And if you're not already following Melani in all the places, obviously, make sure you do that too.
Melani
At (@) Just being Melani. "Just being Melani" across all platforms.
Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for our annual Ins & Outs Episode!
This is what we do every New Year, instead of making resolutions or setting problematic body change goals. It's deeply unserious but still satisfies that urge to reflect and make some (fun) plans for the year to come!
Listen to hear...
⭐️ The pants Virginia forgot she was wearing.
⭐️ The food trends Corinne is SO OVER.
⭐️ Virginia's new religion!!
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.
Join Extra Butter!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
This transcript contains affiliate links. If you're going to buy something we mention, shopping these links supports Burnt Toast at no extra cost to you!
Episode 227 Transcript
Corinne
So today we have a topic that we have done before. 
Virginia
I think we've only officially done it once before? But it now feels to me like a Burnt Toast institution.
Corinne
Yes, and that institution is called Ins and Outs.
Virginia
Ins and Outs for the new year, because it is 2026!
Corinne
It's our little way of ringing in the new year and talking about what we're feeling right now. It's not a resolution. It really is a snapshot of what we're thinking at any moment in time.
Virginia
Whenever we happen to make the list. I like it because it's the epitome, to me, of anti-diet resolution culture. It's really just: These are things I love. These are things I'm done with. 
I suppose you could do a diet-y version of this. But we don't, and we encourage you not to.
Corinne
And I think we'll see, perhaps, as we look back at some of ours from last year, how fleeting some of these really can be.
Virginia
Which is the fun of it.
So you brought this concept into all of our lives. And I'm very grateful to you, because I do like having a New Year's ritual. The part of my brain that gets excited for New Year, fresh start, blah, blah, blah. That part of my brain that likes new pencils and whatnot, is like, oh, good. I have a thing to do.
Corinne
I feel like in past years people have done ins and outs like on Instagram. Like they would just do them in their notes app and then post a screenshot of it. And I haven't seen any of that yet this year. It is a bit early, but I'm curious whether that's going to be happening.
Virginia
Or if this social media trend is dying. But not here!
Corinne
Not here on Burnt Toast!
Virginia
Ins and Outs are still In. For us.
All right, should we look back at our 2025 lists before we get into the new lists? 
Listen to the 2025 Ins & Outs ep!Corinne
Yes. I'll read yours. 
Okay, so for 2025: In for you was Bird Buddy. Out was Instagram.
Virginia
I do think I've done a lot less Instagram! I wouldn't say it's gone completely, although I am currently in the middle of a spontaneous extended break for the holidays, and I love it. And Bird Buddy, I do still love. I ended up getting one for my mom for her birthday, and we have both our Bird Buddies on the same app. That said, ours is currently on a technical hiatus because we had to switch our wifi network. And I have to re-sync it with the wifi network. And, you know, that's the kind of annoying chore that's going to take you, like, six months to do. But I'm getting there. And bird feeders in general, are still very in over here. We're very into them. We did them all year, and it's a major joy. 
Corinne
Okay, cool.
In: bootcut pants. Out: Colette cropped pants. 
Virginia
Did I even buy any bootcut pants? 
Corinne
Wasn't it bootcut Beyond Yoga pants?
Virginia
Oh, wait. I'm wearing them right now!
Corinne
Oh my God. Okay, wow.
Virginia
I guess they're in! I didn't take it any further, though.
Corinne
And are the Colette crop pants still out?
Virginia
Well, I think those blue corduroy pants I wore over the fall are the Colette pants. 
Corinne
So, no.
Virginia
I don't know, man. All pants are out for me. They're all out, they're all in. It's ever changing.
Corinne
Okay. In: air fryer cookies. Out: Tate's cookies.
Virginia
Well, I definitely did not stop buying Tate's cookies, even a little bit. But I did make so many air fryer cookies, like at least once a week. So I think pants are always out, cookies are always in.
Corinne
That seems fair. All right, In: two pieces. Out: apology ruching.
Virginia
I do love a two piece swimsuit, and I don't think anyone needs to ruch. I think your midsection can be whatever shape it is, and you don't need to put bumpy fabric on top of it.
Corinne
Fair. In: buying meat and eggs from the local butcher. Out: buying grocery store meat and eggs.
Virginia
I think we did pretty well with this one. I mean, now our eggs are our own chicken eggs. 
Corinne
That's awesome.
Virginia
The meat we are mostly buying from the local butcher, or we have one grocery store that  stocks some local farm-sourced meat. It's a very bougie thing, but it also, if you're going to be a meat eater, trying to be an ethical meat eater, is, I think, valuable. So I feel good about that.
Corinne
In: teal, dark green and pink. Out: light gray.
Virginia
If you could see my house, there's so much teal, dark green and pink in it.
Corinne
 That's awesome. 
Virginia
I'm really noticing what a stranglehold gray had on home decor from like the 2010s on. And when I go somewhere with a lot of gray now, I'm like, oh, this is kind of sad. And I mean, I had a very gray, neutral house for a long time.
Corinne
That's so funny, especially because wasn't the Pantone color of the year was just announced?And it's like... cloud. 
Virginia
If depression were a color. Not good. But for me, color is in. 
Okay, let's do your 2025 list. In: wearing one thing over and over. Out: buying multiples of the exact same thing.
Corinne
Okay, I'll say I think I did okay at this. I don't know how I did wearing one thing over and over, but I think I did cut back a little bit on buying multiples. Although I have bought some of the same thing in different colors.
Virginia
Is that not buying multiples?
Corinne
Well, I don't know. It was unclear what "buying multiples" was supposed to mean. I think buying multiples meant buying the exact same thing.
Virginia
Oh, because of scarcity mindset.
Corinne
Yes. And I think I've done better at this.
Virginia
If you're buying multiples, but they're different colors, that feels like a baby step out of buying multiples of the same item. So I give you a gold star.
Okay, bird watching is in. Tiktok watching is out. Corinne, how did it go breaking up with Tiktok?
Corinne
I have not broken up with Tiktok. I am still watching Tiktoks. I did recently start using an app blocker to block Tiktok after 10pm and that is working pretty well for me. 
Virginia
That seems great. 
Corinne
And I haven't done too much bird watching, but I do still really enjoy passive bird watching.
Virginia
Do you do bird feeders? Bird feeders are really great if you just want to passively bird watch. 
Corinne
No, I should get a bird feeder.
Virginia
You would really enjoy a bird feeder. The key is you hang it somewhere that you already sit, and have a window you can look out of, so then they really are just coming to you. Otherwise, you'll forget about it and you won't fill it. 
Corinne
Okay, let me think about that.
Virginia
In: Decluttering. Out: Organizing.
Corinne
I mean, who knows. 
Virginia
I'm confused about how those are different?
Corinne
It was based on some blog post I read where she was like, "Organizing is pointless. You need to declutter first." So if your closet is messy, don't just buy new hangers. You actually need to get rid of stuff. 
Virginia
You actually could stand to have like, a third less stuff. 
Corinne
And I will say I did do a big closet declutter, and it has been helping. So.
Virginia
Yes, you did, we have not yet seen post clutter, post decluttering, organizing photos of that closet. But we trust.
Corinne
Probably doesn't look that different to anyone else, but.
Virginia
You know.
Corinne
 Wait, I think I did do photos.
Virginia
Oh, maybe you did. I'm sorry. Okay, In: accessories. Out: matching sets. 
Corinne
Um, hard to say. I will say, I think this is still true for me. I think matching sets, I really want them to work, and then when I put it on, I just don't feel it.
I just wrote this post about sweatpants, and I have a matching sweat top for all of those sweatpants, and I almost never wear them.
Accessories are in, though. I'm currently wearing a bandana.
Virginia
And you've been wearing your new red collar quite a bit.
I also struggle with the matching sets. Although I will say Naadam, which is a sustainable cashmere brand that Corinne and I both love, gifted me some pieces recently. (Full disclosure, it was gifted.)
And because I've already bought myself several Naadam pieces, I didn't really need stuff. I did get this hoodie that I'm wearing, but then I got Jack a matching set, like cashmere pants and a zippered hoodie. And every time he wears it, I'm like, God damn it, I really want a matching set. This is so cute. 
Corinne
That's cool.
Virginia
He wears it around the house all the time and loves it. And now I'm like, maybe I do want that? So I don't know. I think I'm coming back around on those. 
Okay, in was beef stew. Out was pulled pork.
Corinne
I mean, yes, sure, yes.
Virginia
Controversial position.
Corinne
I haven't had too much pulled pork this year. If it was offered to me, I would eat it.
Virginia
I made a delicious pulled pork yesterday. Throw it in the slow cooker and put a Dr Pepper over it.
Corinne
Oh, that sounds delicious. 
Virginia
So easy, so good.
I made beef stew two weeks before that. I mean, this isn't my list, so I'm allowed to have it all. 
In was passion fruit as a flavor in pastry and desserts. Out, was matcha as a flavor in pastry and desserts.
Corinne
I mean, I'm still really excited about passionfruit. I did drink a lot of matcha this year.
Virginia
I will say neither of those flavors ever come up over here with air fryer cookies.
Corinne
Passionfruit is so good. I ate a lot of passion fruit ice cream this summer.
Virginia
That does sound delicious.
Corinne
 It was really good. 
Virginia
Well, when you look at your 2025 list, do you feel like, who was that person? Or do you feel like, yeah, that's pretty consistent with what I'm still into. 
Corinne
I feel like, I remember that person.
Virginia
I feel like I stood by most of mine, except being confused about pants. But that's also very universally on brand for me.
All right. I feel like we need a drum roll sound effect or something. Tommy drop in whatever speaks to you. 
Here, it is time for the 2026 lists!
Corinne
Okay.
In: meatballs. Out. I don't know what the out is. I want it to be beef stew, but beef stew could never be out.
Virginia
I'm sorry you only get one delicious meat dish per year.
Corinne
At first I was like, mac and cheese, but no, mac and cheese can't be out. I don't know what's out.
Virginia
Veggie meatballs?
Corinne
I mean, veggies could never be out.
Virginia
Out with a food is a really hard choice. 
Corinne
I know it is. I will say, I'm never eating meatloaf. Meatloaf could be out, but like... I like meatloaf! As a concept. 
Virginia
You're not politically or morally opposed to meatloaf.
Corinne
Or maybe it's like, deli meats.
Virginia
I'm sorry. You're not gonna eat a hoagie?
Corinne
I'm definitely going to eat a hoagie. I was just trying to think of meat in non-ball form. Like flat meats. Meatballs are in. Patties are out. 
Virginia
If you want a hamburger, you'll just make a big round one. 
Corinne
Totally normal.
Virginia
"Sorry, I only consume ground meat if it's ball shaped." 
Corinne
I was actually kind of wondering if you might have meatballs on your list.
Virginia
I don't have meatballs on my list. At this moment, I don't have any food.
Corinne
 Wow. I definitely made my list when  I was hungry, because I have three.
Virginia
My first one in for 2026 is therapy, because I just restarted.
Corinne
Congratulations.
Virginia
Thank you. I have been in and out of therapy for years and years, but I've been on a break for a while, and I was like, you know what? It's time to get back to it. The break was nice, but my brain needs it, so I'm back. My therapist was very happy to see me, and I feel good about that. 
I think all the mental support in 2026, for all of us. Out, this one's optimistic, but I wrote migraines? Question mark because they are my body's primary response and manifestation of stress. So maybe being back in therapy will help cut down on migraines. 
Corinne
I love that. 
Virginia
We shall see. But it feels good.
Corinne
 Okay, my next one is In: card games. Out: board games.
Virginia
All right, I respect it. What card games are you into?
Corinne
Well, this is again, me being slightly influenced by my very current present self. I just went away for the weekend with some friends, and we were playing cards. We're playing a game that we were calling, up, up, up. And then I was trying to google it, to find some finer points. And I think it's called Oh Hell or Oh Pshaw. Something like that. 
Virginia
These all have nothing to do with each other.
Corinne
I was reflecting on how many card games have swears in the title. Oh Hell, Shithead, a lot.
Virginia
And these are traditional pack of card games that are sold in decks?
Corinne
These are using a traditional deck of cards.
Virginia
Got it, got it. 
Corinne
I think the traditional deck of cards is nice also, because most people have them. They're easy to get. 
Virginia
Super easy to travel with. And you can do a lot.
Corinne
Versatile. You can play so many different games with them. But again, if someone invites me to play a board game, am I saying no? No, I am not.
Virginia
 "Sorry. This year is for cards."
I also do like quite a few games that are card-based. I'm a big fan of Quiddler, which is like Scrabble, but in card form. Jack's family introduced to me, and I love it. 
Corinne
Wait, you don't need special cards?
Virginia
Oh, no, sorry. You do need a Quiddler card deck. Their cards are all letters, and you get letters and you make words. So it's like a more portable way to do Scrabble. That's cool and faster than Scrabble. It's fun. 
Next up is my one food-adjacent one. In for 2026 is the AnyList app where you can put recipes and do meal planning. And Out, I say tentatively and with some trepidation, Instacart. I'm moving away a little bit from my "people need to bring food to my house for me all the time" era. Because I have someone to share meal labor with now. We are using the AnyList app. It's really great. You can dump in your recipes, and it will pull the ingredients out, put them on a shopping list for you.
I've always been skeptical of this concept, but I've actually been finding this very helpful for my brain, and especially Jack having the list as well. So if either of us notices something's out, it goes on the list, and then we both know. Shared mental labor, food labor stuff. Big fan. 
Corinne
How do you put the recipes in? Is it just a link?
Virginia
I don't understand the technology. But I do know that now, if I'm in the New York Times cooking app, or I'm looking at the Smitten Kitchen website, or one of the other places I get recipes, if I go down in my phone to "share," a little option comes up to put it in AnyList.
Corinne
Okay, cool. 
Virginia
And then I go over to the app, and it's there, and then it can go on the grocery list.
And if it's a week when I'm not over Instacart, you can even click "add to online order," and it will put everything on your grocery list into Instacart for you. But like I said, I'm trying to live clean now, so. Trying to do less of that, because the fees have really gotten quite out of control, yeah? But there are some weeks where it's necessary, and that's fine.
Corinne
Those are good ones. All right, my next one is: In is wearing a t shirt over a long sleeve shirt. Out is wearing a long sleeve shirt over a short sleeve shirt.
Virginia
My eight year old is so with you on this trend. They really like to put a t-shirt over a hooded sweatshirt. 
Corinne
Oh, cool. 
Virginia
Or over a really thick buttoned cardigan.
Corinne
Wow. I love that.
Virginia
They really feel like their t shirt collection is getting short shrift in the winter, and while they hear me about weather, they are unwilling for it to be a base layer. They want it to be a top layer. We're also doing a lot of shorts over fleece leggings.
Corinne
Oh, interesting. Okay.
Virginia
And skirts over sweatpants.
Corinne
 Inspiring. I've been seeing this one a lot out in the wild, and I have yet to really try it myself. I actually feel a little confused about what t-shirt goes over a long sleeve shirt, because I have a lot of plain, colored t-shirts, and I feel like sometimes it's better if it's graphic or stripe or something.
Virginia
What this trend brings me back to is eighth grade, when my eighth grade crush—Brian Chamberlain, hope you're doing well, wherever you are—always wore a band t-shirt or some kind of t-shirt over a turtleneck. In retrospect, I'm sure this was his mother being worried about weather. But I was like, that is a look.
Corinne
I do like that look, but I don't really wear band t shirts. So like, what am I doing?
Virginia
Yeah, do you have whimsical t-shirts, or political t-shirts, food based t-shirts?
Corinne
I have one t-shirt that has a graphic on the front, so I'm going to try with that one. And then, yeah, I might need to buy some graphic tees. 
Virginia
Maybe this is the year you get really into t-shirts! 
In for me in 2026—okay, this one might be controversial, and I'm worried people are going to tell me it's bad ethically. I just want to say right now that if that's true, I don't want to know about it just yet. But you can tell me in a few months. Okay, In for me for 2026 is being really good at credit card points. And out, I hope, will be paying for vacations, because I'm going to pay for them with credit card points. 
Corinne
Oh, cool.
Virginia
But I am worried that there's some consumer ethics issue around credit card points? I think I'm doing something bad, but I don't know what it is. I'm being complicit with big banks, I guess. 
Corinne
You're asking the wrong person. I have no idea.
Virginia
I don't know. I'm pretty sure there's a moral dilemma around this that I'm choosing not to look at because I did just book a February trip to Jamaica on points. And I feel great about that. 
Corinne
Well, I like not paying for stuff.
Virginia
Yeah, not paying for stuff, seems great. My friend Tracy is a points master. She's been teaching me a lot. There's an online course you can take. It's all about opening new cards to get the sign up bonuses, and then knowing how to use your cards so that you're maximizing points.
So I'm not spending more, but I am being more careful about, like, oh, wait, I have to pay for that with this card, because it gets more points. Or let me get that bill moved over to a card, so at least if I'm paying a gazillion dollars a month for therapy for everybody, we're getting points on all those therapy appointments. 
Corinne
I feel like I'm not type A enough for this. I would be like, Oh, I forgot I even have this credit card and now there are thousands of dollars on it. So that's who was paying my electric bill!
Virginia
Thanks, MasterCard!
You do have to be really diligent about paying off your balances every month. I feel like it's actually making me engage more with my spending, because I am so petrified that I'm going to leave a balance on a card I forgot about. So I'm being really diligent about checking all of them. And a side perk is that I have spotted some recurring subscriptions to things I forgot about, and I've been canceling some of those. Because now I'm actually looking at my statements a lot more often. 
Corinne
I'm going to do another controversial food one. In: breakfast sausage. Out: bacon.
Virginia
That's going to be hard for the Burnt Toast community. I think we're going to have to really sit with that as a community.
Corinne
Once again, I will still be eating bacon. 
However, I just want to say some things about breakfast sausage. I think bacon gets all the love, and I think breakfast sausage deserves more love.
Virginia
 I agree with you actually. 
Corinne
One, it's freaking delicious. Two, it's so much easier to deal with than bacon. Much less messy, much easier to cook. 
Virginia
You can't screw it up. You're not like, oh, it's too crispy. It's not crispy enough.
Corinne
And I guess that's really all I have to say. 
Virginia
I feel like it's more filling, too. 
Corinne
Yeah. I think you're right in a way. So, breakfast sausage is in.
Virginia
I can get on board with this. I like breakfast sausage. I find it hard to find good breakfast sausage.
Corinne
Oh, not me. 
Virginia
Is there a brand you like? 
Corinne
Does your grocery store carry Niman Ranch? 
Virginia
I don't know, but I will look. 
Corinne
It's a slightly higher end brand. Whole Foods usually has it. But Niman Ranch has really good breakfast sausage. They have a basic breakfast sausage, and they also have one that's like bacon breakfast sausage, and it's freaking delicious. 
Virginia
Well, there you go. You just combined the best of both worlds.
Corinne
Yes, exactly.
Virginia
We do breakfast for dinner a lot with the kids, and I often do breakfast sausage for the meat, because I just don't feel like dealing with bacon in the evening for some reason. 
Corinne
Yes, bacon is slightly annoying to deal with, so that's why breakfast sausage is in.
Virginia
But if other people want to make us bacon, we will still eat it.
Corinne
 Yes, and I'm sure I will still be eating bacon.
Virginia
Okay, this next one is a little obscure maybe, or just really only applies to me. But in for 2026 is putting all my lamps on timers.
Corinne
 Ooh. Love that.
Virginia
And out is basically either having lights that are always on or never on. I love a floor lamp. I prefer floor lamps to overhead lights. I like a cozy ambiance. But I'm tired at night. I can't be walking around the house turning off floor lamps. 
Corinne
Wait. Have you gotten into smart plugs, or you're just doing timers?
Virginia
Okay, yes, I'm into smart plugs. I got an app on my phone. I can turn all these lights on and off with my phone. And you can schedule them so they just come on on their own and put themselves to bed. And I just feel like more of my house needs to be self-managing. Because there's a lot in my house that I have to be on top of, and I don't really need the living room floor light to need that much from me. I want it to show up, do it's job, be a cozy glow, and then put itself to bed. 
Corinne
My sister is really good at this.
Virginia
You have to get over the initial annoying 10 minute time setup, and then you're just like, oh my god, this is changing my life.
Corinne
Yeah, I've set them up when I've gone out of town before, so they come on and off.
Virginia
The Home Alone strategy!
Corinne
But then I get back and I get annoyed and unplug them, and then I forget what the app is called. 
Virginia
I can understand that.
Corinne
But it is useful to be able to turn things on and off with your phone.
Virginia
I also had my electrician put my front porch light on a timer for me, which I think is actually something you could do yourself if you are a more together person. Because otherwise it had just been on for, like, five years I think. 
Corinne
Oh, wow.
Virginia
It just never turned it off. And that's not great, so now it's on a timer, and that's making me really happy.
Corinne
That's a good one. 
This perhaps another controversial one based on a product that I recommended in one of our recent episodes. For me, In is body butter--specifically this one made with tallow. 
Virginia
Yes, we did talk about that.
Corinne
 And I apologize for making it sound like I'm a MAHA, but IN body butter, OUT body oil. 
Virginia
I don't think I've ever liked body oil. 
Corinne
Oh, I like body oil, but, you know, I think my skin prefers a lotiony thing.
Virginia
The body butter is like a lotion?
Corinne
Yeah, but it's not in a pump. It's a tub that you kind of swipe. It's so good. The texture is incredible.
Virginia
Okay, yeah, I need to get that. 
In for 2026 which I will say, is a work in progress, is, I am trying to establish a new religion in my household. And the religion, the faith that I want us to all partake in is, which I'm calling church, is that every Sunday morning we get in the hot tub. 
Corinne
Oh, I love that. 
Virginia
For a religious experience that is just sitting in the hot tub. We do not have any gods or dogma in this religion, but it's proving weirdly uphill to convince my kids we should do this. They're like, I don't feel like it. Whatever. That's why I started calling it church. Because I was like, you guys are like being dragged to church. 
Corinne
Really funny. 
Virginia
Kids I grew up with would always be like, don't make me go to church. And I'm like, we don't do that. I'm just trying to get you to relax in hot water and talk to your mom.
Corinne
That sounds nice. I would like to go to that church. 
Virginia
It's a great church. And I feel like it's a good way for me to make sure I put some rest in my weekends. I couldn't really think of an out. I put cold plunging, but I would never have gone cold plunging. That was never in for me. That's a terrible idea.
Corinne
I love to cold plunge. 
Virginia
You've done cold plunging!
Corinne
After a sauna or something. I love it.
Virginia
I mean, in the winter, you cold plunge from the hot tub to get out into the cold air to go back inside. Does that count? All right, that's all I'm willing to do.
Corinne
Okay, my last one. And I'm a little bit afraid to say this, is for me, in potatoes, out rice.
Virginia
I really like how all of yours were food, and you're afraid of blowback with every single one.
Corinne
I just don't want to offend anyone, because, you know, rice is really good, as is bacon and whatever the opposite of meatballs is.
 But I'm really into eating potatoes right now.
Virginia
For me, it's always going to be pasta over both those two.
Corinne
Yeah, I'm choosing potatoes over pasta right now. But I like pasta as well. 
Virginia
Well, that is hard for me to hear.
Corinne
I'm just loving potatoes. Potatoes are in for 2026.
Virginia
All kinds. Fries. 
Corinne
Potato girl year.
Virginia
Potato girl year. That's actually really good. 
Corinne
You know, chopped up and roasted. Also, I'm just loving a baked potato, which is not new for me
Virginia
You have been on the baked potato train for a while. That's a good reminder to me to make baked potatoes.
Corinne
Potatoes are such a good vehicle. 
Virginia
They're a great base.
Corinne
As are as rice and pasta.
Virginia
Okay, that's a great one. I support you. I'm going to still be over here eating pasta, but I support you. 
Okay, my last one for 2026 in is oral hygiene. 
To be clear, I've always had good oral hygiene. I didn't just recently adopt oral hygiene, but I have leveled up my game. My dentist has really been on me about my perimenopausal gums. and something we all have to think about a lot in our 40s. Apparently, my oral hygiene has been too good. I was brushing too vigorously for too long, and I've eroded some gum. Yeah, that's a real lie fed to our generation, that you should brush hard. You shouldn't. Anyway. So now I have an electric toothbrush and I have a WaterPik.
Corinne
Oh, cool. I'm so curious about WaterPiks.
Virginia
It has a learning curve. It took me a while, but I've got the hang of it now. And I will say my teeth have never felt cleaner. 
Corinne
Oh, that's very appealing. 
Virginia
They're dreamy clean. And it's kind of the point where, when I eat lunch and that's not a meal I usually brush my teeth after, but I feel so gross. I want to go floss at least.
Corinne
A WaterPik is cleaning out between your teeth.
Virginia
In my case, they told me to use it to trace the gum line. People can't see, but I'm making a kind of scalloping motion. You scallop along your teeth, and you have to do the outside, and you have to get in and do the backs of your teeth.
Corinne
Do you still have to floss? Or no?
Virginia
I am still flossing, but that's because I love flossing. So in the morning. I'm doing mouthwash and electric toothbrush. At night I'm doing floss, water pick, electric toothbrush. and so I decided my out for this one is hydration, because I am no longer tracking my hydration, and I'm putting all that same energy towards teeth. I'll hydrate when I hydrate.
Corinne
That's awesome. 
Virginia
I'm realizing I had no clothes ones on my list this year, which is maybe fine.
Corinne
I only had one which was kind of random. 
Clothes are out.
Virginia
But also read Big Undies, Corinne’s fashion newsletter.
Corinne
Big Undies Announcement: 2026, clothes are out.
Virginia
I do think clothes are the most changeable often. You're not going to stand by a clothes feeling you have in January.
Corinne
I think it's nice for clothes to not necessarily be so trend driven.
Virginia
Actually, that's a nice spin on it. I think I didn't have any clothes that I felt strongly I was over, which means I liked a lot of what I wore this year.
Corinne
Yes, your in bootcut pants from last year are the pants you're wearing right now.
Virginia
I stuck with it. 
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Butter
Virginia
We're going to do Butter, and full disclosure, this is a brand that Corinne and I love. We both shop here, we have both spent so much money at over the years, but they do also send us free stuff from time to time, so it's not sponsored, but there is a gifted element here. So do with that information what you will? 
Corinne
Yes. Well, this year on my gift guide, I put the East Fork Bitty bowls, which I had yet to own, and now I have gotten some which actually I did pay for, and I'm obsessed with them. I just want to double down on that recommendation. They're so useful and cute.
Virginia
They are so useful. I have them all over my house because I have a child who takes her earrings off wherever she stands, and then gets mad that she's lost her earrings. 
Corinne
That's hilarious. 
Virginia
And so whenever I find earrings around my house, which is always, I stick them in the nearest bitty bowl.
Corinne
That's so funny. 
Virginia
They probably didn't anticipate that as a use.
Corinne
But it's so smart. I'm like, oh, now I need one next to my bed. I should put one on my desk. I also sometimes take my earrings off.
Virginia
I have one on my kitchen counter, because I take my rings off if I make meatballs. So I'll stick them in there. But they are also great if you're putting out a little jam on a charcuterie board, or we eat chocolate chips out of them while we watch TV.
Corinne
Or, like, a little salt on the table.
Virginia
They truly have endless purposes. And if you're an East Fork fan, as we are, when they release a new color and you're like, oh, I want the new color and you don’t actually need anything, I'll usually get a bitty bowl just to, like, add to the collection.
Corinne
Yeah, totally. 
Virginia
Because it's like 14 bucks or whatever. 
Corinne
That makes sense to me.
Virginia
I was also going to do an East Fork butter, because, yes, I love this brand. I am drinking tea out of an East Fork mug as we record. I have their weeknight serving bowl in two colors now, one I paid for, one was gifted. I have the light blue and I have the malachite green, and it's a very useful size serving bowl. I feel like sometimes serving bowls are too big, and feel like overkill. And sometimes they're cute, but kind of teensy, and then you're like, trying to toss the salad, and it's like, falling out of the bowl. The weeknight serving bowl is an excellent size for pasta salads, you could put potatoes in it for sure. All the things.
Corinne
I'm going to be needing some of those as well. 
Virginia
All right. Well, that was a slightly sponsored butter. But anyone who's followed Burnt Toast for a while knows that our love of East Fork long predates when they sent us a few free bowls. So it's coming from the heart.
And use BurntToast15 at checkout if you decide to join us in the bitty bowl obsession and get 15% off!
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Happy 2026!!! To celebrate—and kick off the most diet-y month of the year!—we are here with a roundup of the very best anti-diet fitness advice in the Burnt Toast archives.
If you find this useful, consider a paid Burnt Toast subscription! We're way cheaper than a gym or a diet app membership, and arguably better for your health too.
And in addition to getting behind paywalled episodes and essays, Burnt Toasties get to join our awesome chat rooms like Team CPAP, Anti-Diet Ozempic Life and Fat Fashion! You'll find so much practical support, inspiration, and fat joy. Join us here!
Don't diet, come hang with us! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
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Episode 226 Transcript
Virginia
Happy 2026! We made it. It's a whole new year. 
Corinne
Thank God, honestly.
Virginia
See you later, 2025. Excited to be here in a new in a new chapter.
Corinne
To celebrate, we're bringing you a helpful episode to kick off the most diet-y month of the year: A roundup of our favorite anti-diet fitness advice.
Virginia
I'm excited for this. I hope this is grounding to people and helps prevent you spiraling off into some new thing that doesn't serve you. 
We're also holding space for the fact that a lot of people do like fresh start culture. We will be coming to you next week with our annual Ins and Outs episode. So don't think we are immune from resolution culture! That's the Burnt Toast version of it. It's coming.
All right. First up, we have an excerpt from an episode called “We Have Only Recently Acknowledged That Female Athletes Need to Eat.” This episode aired October 19, 2023. It's an oldie, but a goldie. And the guest was Christine Yu, author of Up to Speed: The Groundbreaking Science of Women Athletes.
And one of the main things Christine wanted us to understand was carbs are good for you.
Virginia
I also want to spend some time on your very excellent chapter about diet and sports. This was so well done. It feels like nutritional science, athletic research— all of this research—has only just recently given women permission to eat as athletes, and to eat enough to support their sports. This feels really staggering to me, that there has been this underfeeding of women athletes for so long.
Christine
Consistently. All the time. And I think it’s in part because of just general diet culture in our culture and society and these ridiculous expectations that we have or we place on girls and women in terms of what their bodies need to look like. And then you have the sports performance side, you have this idea that certain body types are the ideal athletic body types. 
It’s almost no wonder that we create this perfect storm and a way for disordered eating and eating disorders and all these other problematic behaviors to take root. Especially because bodies are so central, obviously, in sports and performance. And we focus so much on bodies and how they look, what their body composition is, and all of these different things, the shape of you, all of that.
It’s wild to me that it’s only been recently that we do acknowledge the fact you just need to eat. We talked so much about nutrition and sports as this idea of fueling your body, which I think was at first kind of helpful in the way of reframing food within this context. Your body needs fuel to be able to do all this stuff, in order to start to give folks a little bit more permission to eat or feel like they could eat what they needed. But that, I think, even still creates this idea that there’s a certain kind of fuel that you need to be eating in order to be an athlete, in order to fuel your body correctly, if that makes sense.
Virginia
It’s, again, mind blowing, but makes sense that we had to first embrace the idea of eating, period, as opposed to eating being the enemy. You have so many heartbreaking stories from athletes in this chapter talking about feeling like they were so tapped out at the end of a practice that they couldn’t function and that when they started eating enough, they were like, wow.
Christine
Turns out!
Virginia
“I can do a 90 minute workout without a problem!” The fact that they were performing at all when they were being asked to do it while starving is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous what they were being asked to do. Then seeing that immediate and logical shift that if you feed yourself, you can perform better. But then from there, this idea of food as fuel can also become very limiting because, of course, athletes are human beings, as well. And food is more than fuel for all of us.
Christine
It’s really easy within sports and athletics to look at food as almost a hack, in a way. Like, as a way to like fine tune your performance. Oh, I need more iron, or whatever other very specific thing that you need. And again, I think it dissociates food from what it actually is. I think that also just makes it really ripe to encourage a lot of these behaviors that aren’t always helpful or healthy.
Virginia
You also do some amazing work in this chapter dissecting a couple of the modern big diet trends: Intermittent fasting, keto, and you even look at some of the less extreme ones like the Mediterranean diet, and show how they underserve athletes and especially women athletes. I wondered if we could just spend a little time talking about your findings there, because that felt super important to me. 
Christine
In the last several years, we’ve seen things like intermittent fasting and keto pop up within athletic communities as this way to make your body a better machine. Especially, I think, within endurance sports, it’s this idea that your body can run longer or you can somehow create these these efficiencies, if you will.
But the body likes to be in homeostasis, it likes to be in balance. So anytime energy levels start to dip, your body starts to send out these flares that are like, “Wait a second, hold on. Are we going to be starving real soon?” Because if so, I need to make some adjustments, physiologically. So with a lot of these diets, you’re actually ended up with these long periods of under-fueling your body. With intermittent fasting, you’re not eating for anywhere between eight to many, many hours. So you’re leaving your body in this huge deficit of energy so it starts to freak out and starts to shut down these non essential systems.
And the thing with women is that our bodies are much more sensitive to these downturns in nutrition. It starts to send up those flares a lot earlier, it starts to make those those physiological changes a lot earlier. That can have repercussions on things like your menstrual cycle and all the hormonal things that your body does. 
Similarly, with keto, this whole idea of eating a lot of fat and very few carbs might seem like, Oh, I’m really full, I don’t need to eat as much. But it’s the same idea that you end up inadvertently underfueling your body. But more importantly, especially for women, by not eating carbs, it sends up those same flares to the body. Women’s bodies, in particular, need carbohydrates in order to function well, in order to do all the things it does. And when we don’t have carbs, the body starts to send all these warning signs.
We tend to see intermittent fasting or keto “work” in men because it seems like male bodies can get away with that under-fueling a little bit more than female bodies. But when women tend to try these diets they end up feeling, unsurprisingly, really flat, really fatigued, a lot of brain fog. They don’t see this performance boost and then they wonder what they’re doing wrong because all the podcasts, all the influencers, say I should be intermittent fasting. This is going to be how I’m going to lose weight. This is how I’m going to cut time on my race. This is how I’m going to improve performance, improve body composition, all the stuff. But I’m not seeing that. I’m feeling flat. I’m not seeing all these other positive benefits. It’s because your body is essentially saying, ah, this isn’t working for me.
Virginia
Just because it works for Peter Attia does not mean—and question mark on if it even works for these guys? Thats the other thing I just want to interject. It might improve athletic performance, it doesn’t mean it’s not having other consequences on their mental health or their relationships with food and body. But that’s fascinating to realize specifically, if your goal is improving athletic performance—one of these diets is not going to deliver for you the way you’ve been told it might. 
Christine
Especially the idea around carbs. I feel like carbs still have like a bad rap. People are still really afraid to eat carbs and I just want folks to know it’s not a bad thing. Your body actually needs it. It wants them. 
Corinne
I mean, what can I say? Perennial wisdom.
Virginia
Perennial wisdom. Really important. And it's just absolutely wild —the science she gets into about how little female athletes in particular, were allowed to eat for decades, and how much better everybody performs as a human being and an athlete when they eat carbs.
Corinne
Yeah, this makes me sad. 
Okay, next we're going to hear a clip from an episode called It’s Time To Free The Jiggle. This one aired on December 14, 2023 and our guest was Jessie Diaz-Herrera. Jessie is a body affirming dancer, health and wellness influencer, and fitness enthusiast. You might know her on Instagram as curves with moves or from her Free The Jiggle classes.
Jessie's advice is so helpful if you're thinking about starting about starting any new kind of workout or entering a new workout space, especially as a fat person.
Virginia
The first question is:
Do you have any tips for focusing on how you’re feeling in your body versus imagining how your body could look? This feels especially hard with dance.
Jessie
This is a very honest and vulnerable question, but also very real. Especially in any group setting, whether it’s group fitness, group dance classes, there’s always this like, “How am I perceived by other people? How am I looking at myself in the mirror?” and that can be really hard. But dance is an art form, right? So let’s relate it to art, right? Let’s say our bodies are paint brushes. If I’m a paintbrush and you’re a paintbrush, you may have slightly different widths right. And my strokes are not going to be the same as yours, right? But we’re still creating art. We’re both still moving. We’re both still working through this. I think sometimes we like to compare ourselves to other people. Like, “I don’t look like the instructor.” But the instructor is more of a facilitator, right? They’re there to help you and guide you. 
Obviously, in more fitness classes, there’s a form and there are things that you want to make sure that you’re doing safely. But if it’s a feel good class, if you’re like in a cardio dance class where you’re just there to feel the rhythm and dance or like a Zumba type class and there’s nerves, bring a friend and laugh. Be in the back and laugh.
Like, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been nervous about a class and I’ve taken a friend and we’re like, “We’re just gonna be in the back and try our best but also just laugh at each other if we’re a hot mess.” Let’s give ourselves permission to say, “We’re probably going to mess up and that’s going to be totally fine because we have the intention today of laughing at ourselves and being silly with with ourselves and trying something new.” 
And you’re just not going to look like the next person, so get that out of your head. Because this is your body, this is what you’ve been given. And how you move in this world is different. So sometimes, especially in dance, when it is an art form, I say own it. Own how you dance. Own how you move. It does not have to look like the the instructor or the person next to you. If you feel good, if you are feeling the energy. I know when I dance, there’s a weariness that goes away. There’s this feeling of “Yes, I just feel so good.” Like, I’m sweating. This is my favorite song. Tap into those other things, too.
Maybe you’re not there yet with your body journey. Maybe you’re like, “I can’t stop comparing myself.” Well then maybe you’re thinking about other things within the class, like is this your favorite song? Are you hitting those basses? Can you get that move? Or is the rhythm really hype? Do you want to cheer on the person next to you?  I tell people at the beginning of class, “Hey, if you don’t want to dance, cheer for the person next to you.” Take a water break and just encourage them. 
Virginia
I also want to say to this person, do some of Jessie’s online videos. Because I am someone who has no dance experience. You know, white girl dance moves—that’s what I’ve got. It is what it is. 
Jessie
All of those are safe here.
Virginia
And especially being in a bigger body, I would feel self-conscious going into a group dance class. But what was really fun for me was doing Jessie’s videos in a room in my house without mirrors, because then I wasn’t constantly looking at myself and critiquing how I looked. I could just be in my body and I was able to tap into the joy you’re talking about because there wasn’t an audience. I was just doing it for me. If you’re someone who really doesn’t have a dance background, maybe try that first before you do the group class where you’re just going to feel really intimidated and depending on the context, maybe less welcome.
Jessie
I teach kind of a myriad of different classes, but one of our mainstays is called “Free the Jiggle,” and we purposely jiggle. We purposely do things that we would say, like, I’m afraid to do this, we will do it. Kind of to laugh and also in spite of and really to say, why not?
Virginia
It’s a body. It’s moving. 
Jessie
Yeah, exactly. Bodies do jiggle.
Virginia
I really love this. I love embracing that bodies move and jiggle—and everybody's does, straight size, plus size, doesn't really matter. I think this is really powerful. And if you need to do that in the privacy of your own home for a while before you're ready to do that out in some group setting—that is valid, too. 
Corinne
Totally.
Virginia
Okay. Next up, I want us to hear from Disability Rights activist and author Emily Ladau. This is from an episode we did last year called I Don’t See Myself in Fat Liberation Spaces.
Emily is a wheelchair user, and we had a great conversation about how ableism shows up in fat liberation work, but also in fitness spaces. And a cool spin-off from this conversation is that Anna Maltby, friend of the show, who we'll hear from later in this episode, developed a wheelchair friendly workout for her newsletter How To Move, after hearing this interview and connecting with Emily. Which I love. I love seeing fitness professionals taking wheelchair friendly workouts more seriously.
And the big piece of fitness advice I want us all to take away from the conversation with Emily is that sitting down is not going to kill you.
Virginia
One that you put on my radar is all this fearmongering about how we all sit down too much, and sitting is killing us. And if you have a job that requires you to sit all day, it’s taking years off your life.
And yet, of course, people who use wheelchairs are sitting down.
Emily
I think about this a lot, because I would say at least a few times a year some major publication releases an article that basically says we are sitting ourselves to death. And I saw one I know at least last year in the New York Times, if not this year,
Virginia
New York Times really loves this topic. They’re just all over there with their standing desks, on little treadmills all day long.
Emily
I actually decided to Google it before we chatted. I typed in, “New York Times, sitting is bad for you.” And just found rows of articles.
Cool beans, NYT.
Emily
The first time that this ever really came up for me was all the way back in 2014, and I was kind of just starting out in the world of writing and putting myself out there in that way as an activist. And I came across an article that said that the more I sit, the closer I am to death, basically.
It’s really tough for me, because I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth in the sense that if you are not moving your body, you are not taking care of your body in a way that works for you. But the idea that sitting is the devil is deeply ableist, because I need to sit. That does not mean that I cannot move around in my own way, and that does not mean that I cannot function in my own way, but it’s just this idea that sitting is bad and sitting is wrong and sitting is lazy. Sitting is necessary.
Virginia
Sitting is just how a lot of us get things done every day, all day long.
Emily
Right, exactly.
Virginia
Sure, there were benefits to lifestyles that involved people doing manual labor all day long and being more active. Also people died in terrible farming accidents. It’s all part of that romanticization of previous generations as somehow healthier—which was objectively not true.
Emily
You make such a good point from a historical perspective. There’s this idea that it’s only if we’re up and moving and training for a 5k that we’re really being productive and giving ourselves over to the capitalist machine, but at the same time, doing that causes disability in its own way.
Virginia
Sure does. Sure does. I know at least two skinny runners in my local social circle dealing with the Achilles tendons ruptures. It takes a toll on your body.
Emily
Or doing farm labor, as you were talking about. I mean, an agrarian society is great until you throw your back out. Then what happens?
Virginia
There are a lot of disabled folks living with the consequences of that labor.
Emily
And I’ve internalized this messaging. I am not at all above any of this. I mean, I’m so in the thick of it, all the time, no matter how much work I read by fat liberation activists, no matter how much I try to ground myself in understanding that fatness does not equal badness and that sitting does not equal laziness, I am so trapped in the cycle of “I ate something that was highly caloric, and now I better do a seated chair workout video for my arm cycle.” And I say this because I’m not ashamed to admit it. I want people to understand that disabled people are like all other people. We have the same thoughts, the same feelings. We are impacted by diet culture.
Corinne
Such great advice. Important.
Virginia
Emily made me realize how much that anti-sitting agenda is everywhere, especially in the New York Times, for some reason. They're weirdly obsessed with standing desks there.
And it feels similar to wanting to go back to a time before smartphones. Like, okay, maybe it's not ideal that so many people sit so much, but it's the way the world is now. It's what work is now. Unless you're preparing to completely overthrow capitalism and have us all spend our days doing different things. Regardless of ability, most people are sitting so what if we stopped being ashamed of it?
Corinne
I feel like this is just one of those moments where if you weren't aware of it, now you're suddenly aware of the way that we talk about certain things and how it's really fucked up for a whole group of people.
Virginia
For sure.
Corinne
Next let's hear from Lauren Leavell, a weight inclusive fitness professional with an awesome online workout program that Virginia is obsessed with.
Lauren has been on the podcast twice, but joined us last summer to talk about some TikTok drama that erupted when a thin Pilates trainer made a video saying you shouldn't be allowed to take Pilates if you weigh over 200 pounds.
This episode was called Stair Masters Are the Mean Girls of Cardio, and this conversation is a great reminder that you don't have to have the right body for any type of exercise or be really good at any particular sport. You're allowed to just do things because you like them.
I think Pilates is a great workout for people who are in, all different types of bodies and diverse bodies. Pilates is super low impact in a lot of ways, and really good for folks who have chronic illnesses, particularly like reformer, because it could be recumbent and you’re not putting a lot of stress on your joints in the same way. So the idea that this workout that’s really almost like super in line with disability and rehabilitation, to say that there’s like a weight limit—again, fatphobia, joining in with ableism—is like, so so off base. So deeply off base.
Virginia
Fat people can do any workout, but Pilates in particular happens to be a workout that can be extremely body inclusive when it’s taught well.
Lauren
Exactly. I think that that maybe also added to some of the outrage and and honestly, some of me thinking it was very funny.
I’m not someone who regularly weighs myself, but I’ve always been someone who was extremely heavy, as a person. Even as a child, there were stories about me versus my cousin who was three years older than me and a boy, and how he weighed less than me for most of our childhood. I have always been so solid. And I think growing up, many of us heard like, oh, that person has the body of a swimmer. That person should play volleyball or basketball or whatever. I’m like, what is this body type meant for? Like, shotput? And then I’m teaching Barre, you know? I think it’s just so made up. And yes, maybe it’s good for people who swim to have long limbs, great. But when we close ourselves off to types of movement based on body types and weight limits, then people have a harder time finding things that they enjoy, because maybe they don’t enjoy something that they “look like they should.”
Virginia
Just because you don’t have long limbs doesn’t mean swimming can’t bring you a lot of joy.
Lauren
Right? Just because I don’t have long lean muscles doesn’t mean I can’t teach Barre. The language around Barre and Pilates is always “long and lean.” And I just feel that’s so funny as someone who’s not long and lean. I love not being long and lean and and enjoying my classes.
Some of the outrage did come from that number being named, because it’s a misunderstanding of what real people in the real world weigh when you are not around those types of people. But I also think that there are a lot of limitations put on bodies, particularly larger bodies, and what you can and can’t do. I have another video that’s actually making a resurgence right now, probably because of this conversation that fat people should only do cardio, because if you lift weights, then you might gain more muscle mass, which would increase your scale weight. So you should only do cardio, because that’s how you’re going to lose weight, which is inaccurate and very boring.
Virginia
And it’s just really drilling into and this was the core of what she was saying. It’s the core of that Melania video, that exercise is only a tool for weight management. That you would only exercise to avoid or minimize fatness, and right?
Lauren
And because Pilates “isn’t actually good for burning fat,” you definitely shouldn’t be doing it if you’re fat.
Virginia
Yeah, you should be at the gym running. And it’s completely ignoring the many other reasons we would exercise, the benefits you can actually achieve. Because, as you’re saying, weight loss through exercise is a very murky thing for most people. And it’s just ignoring all the other reasons you would do it that are more fun.
Lauren
Yeah, like “I like it.” You’re allowed to like things! But again, if you’re socialized to only know shame and punishment, then the idea that people do things out of pleasure is hard to wrap your mind around.
Virginia
Yes, I love Lauren obviously. I'm obsessed with Lauren's workouts. but I also just really like how she thinks about this stuff, and I think it shows up a lot in how she teaches fitness. I mean, this idea that only certain bodies should do Pilates or do any sport, is absolutely wild. It's problematic at every level, but especially since most of us are not doing any of these activities with a hope of being the best version of that in the world.
Corinne
This one is crazy too, because that was such a huge controversy, and then I completely forgot about it.
Virginia
 It's a good reminder that the Internet is forever, but also these things do blow over. I can't even remember the name of the girl who made that stupid video. We're over it. You can obviously do Pilates if you weigh over 200 pounds. I did some last week.
Last we're going to hear from my girl, Anna Maltby, who is an amazing anti-diet trainer, Pilates instructor and health journalist. Anna writes the newsletter How To Wove, which features weekly workout videos, which is what I do when I'm not doing Lauren's videos. Basically, my workout program is Anna and Lauren on repeat, and it's amazing. 
Anna has also been on the podcast twice, because whenever I find smart fitness people, I do like to keep bringing them back. And she came on last December 2024 to unpack some internet discourse that was happening then about whether core workouts are a scam.
And what we distilled is: Strong core muscles are not a scam. They're really helpful for all the things we need to do with our bodies. But if you hate traditional ab workouts, you probably don't need to do those exact exercises to get a stronger core. And more importantly, you don't have to have flat abs to also have strong, functional core muscles.
So this episode is called A Pudgy Belly Can Be A Strong Core, and I suspect that is really useful for a lot of us to remember right now.
I’ll also just share, as someone who does identify as hating core work, I have come to appreciate it so much more through your workouts and through talking to you about it, because it’s made me realize how much the “I hate core workouts” came from knowing I’m never going to have the visible six pack. Being able to put that down means now I do notice, ohhh, when I get my core properly engaged, my back hurts so much less. Taking the giant bag of dog food in from the curb feels less painful. I get off the floor a lot more easily after giving my seven-year-old a bath. it’s these small things that are really not that small, actually.
Anna
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s almost about safety in your body, right? I’m capable of doing these things. I don’t have to feel fear around movement. I’m comfortable moving throughout the day. There’s so much to be said for that. You say they’re they’re small things, but they’re not really small.
I really want to encourage people to get to know how their body responds to exercise because of all this noise about aesthetics, we haven’t been trained to notice these more internal or intrinsic kind of things, but if you can tap into functional changes, or just how you feel moving through the day. Are you waking up a little less creaky? Are you able to pick that thing up, or are you able to bend down into the bath more comfortably?
Virginia
Shampooing a fast-moving seven-year-old is quite the core workout, in fact.
Anna
Wrestle them into their jackets and all that stuff. This goes back to the central question of why is the myth of visible abs so frustrating? There are so many other things that not just abs, but a functional and strong body, can do for you. To me, those things are better motivators.
I exercise also because of back pain. What got me started on exercise, and got me sticking with exercise, was that I was throwing my back out all the time. And I do that a whole lot less if I’m active regularly. And that’s a really good motivator, and it is achievable and it’s noticeable. And I get punished if I’m not doing it, because my back hurts.
Virginia
Yep. It’s a real one to one connection.
Anna
We have to also talk about people who do need core-specific exercises. It’s a bit more of a rehabilitation focus, but that might include people who are recovering from an injury or surgery. And especially people who are recovering from childbirth, whether that’s a vaginal birth or C-section. A pretty functional body who’s not in that situation, they’ll get really great core work from whatever the else they’re doing, chances are. But in these situations, I do think that isolating your core and targeting your core muscles from a rehabilitative standpoint, is really important. And I think if, like those of us who are who are listening, who’ve had a baby at home, like a brand new baby that they gave birth to, have probably had that experience of like, “Oh my god, where, where are my abs? Where is my core?”
Virginia
They have left the building.
Anna
I can’t do anything. They’ve left the building. And it’s temporary. It’s okay. They will be back. You need to heal. You need to recover. But it’s kind of funny, because you’ll get the advice that you shouldn’t lift anything heavier than five or ten pounds or don’t pick up anything heavy. Try not to do anything until you’ve had more time to heal. But like when you have a new baby at home, you’re picking up and putting down a growing baby
Virginia
Plus a car seat!
Anna
75 times a day. I just remember nursing in bed and then trying to get up out of the bed while holding the baby, and you’re basically doing a weighted sit-up. It’s so, so brutal. And it’s not realistic to say you can’t do any of that stuff until you’ve rehabilitated your core. You need to be able to live your life. But I think that working with rehabilitative exercises as you’re working through your day to day life, is going to make it easier. You’re going to get better, you’re going to start to heal, you’re going to regain that strength so much better than if you’re just not doing any of the rehab and only doing this sort of demands of daily life.
So I want to say, if you’re in that situation—and I think this is also true if you’ve had some kind of abdominal or pelvic or hip surgery—and you’re recovering and you have to have that rest period, rehabilitative exercises can be really, really supportive.
Virginia
What I’m thinking as you’re talking too, is how all of these benefits we’re talking about have absolutely nothing to do with weight loss. This isn’t about, are you losing the baby weight? This isn’t about anything to do with that.
And yet, again, because of the way diet culture trains us to think about core in the past, if I wasn’t losing weight, I wasn’t aware of these benefits. It was harder to tune into these benefits, or if I did notice these benefits, I credited them with any weight loss that was happening. But whether your weight changes or not from exercise is its own separate thing. We could just put that over here. It might happen, it might not. And the core stuff, you can achieve that whether or not the weight changes. And I just want to name that, because I think that’s another place this gets so, so tangled.
Anna
Yes, I think that’s so important. There’s a wonderful perinatal coach named Jessie Mundell, who I’m a huge fan of. She takes a super inclusive approach. And she’s in a larger body. I think I texted you when I did her postpartum certification program, and I was like, “Virginia! There are fitness models in this program in larger bodies! It’s so helpful. It’s amazing. It exists.” And she likes to say, and I’m gonna gonna get the exact words wrong, but it’s something like, you can have a round, pudgy, poochy, cellulite, diastasis recti belly and a functional core. The aesthetics do not predict the functionality.
Virginia
That’s so helpful. It’s so important. Especially if you have the diastasis or the poochy belly, you just think, “Well, that’s it. I will never have a strong core.” And that can just be defeating to even starting with this kind of exercise. So, so important to name.
Anna
Yeah. There are elite athletes who are competing with a three or four finger diastasis.
Corinne
This is a great episode. Anna Maltby is so smart.
Virginia
And just like Lauren, se really helps me reframe some of the toxic messages. I had a really troubling relationship with core workouts for such a long time because of diet culture. But as someone who's really prone to back issues, they are super important for me to do. And being able to do them and appreciate the non-aesthetic benefits of them has been really helpful. So I really appreciated this reframing. 
All right, any final thoughts, any words of wisdom about how you're going to be navigating January Fitness culture? Is the entire month of January a diet, Corinne? Shall we skip it?
Corinne
Well, I would not like to skip it, because my birthday is in January.
Virginia
That's right! Corinne is turning 40 this month!
Corinne
Yes, I'll be turning 40 and I will be not starting any new fitness programs.
Virginia
Love this for you. I'm very excited. Do you ever start workout stuff in January, or do you just, like, kind of try to opt out of that whole piece.
Corinne
Well, it's funny because I just kind of passed my three year anniversary of starting to go to the lifting gym that I go to. And so I did start that in December, which is very close to January. But yeah, I don't think I'll be starting anything new. 
Virginia
Yeah, same.
Corinne
 It wasn't like a New Year's thing.
Virginia
That'sjust when you went. I don't have any new goals. Maybe this is the year I'll learn to do push-ups? We can always hope, right?
Corinne
 Yeah, why not? 
Virginia
I don't have any plans to set out specific goals towards them. I feel like in the last year, I did a pretty good job of keeping movement in my life, even when my life was chaos, and that is new for me. Like, often I would have long periods of like, life is chaos, so I don't have time for that, and then my back would go out. So I feel like, if there's anything I want to maintain this year, it's just to keep doing things I enjoy and keep enjoying the benefits of having movement in my life—to whatever extent that makes sense for my life at any given point.
Corinne
Jas your back gone out this year?
Virginia
It did go out over Thanksgiving. That was a bummer. But not as extremely as it has in the past. I was able to get it back on track in like, three or four days. Whereas I've had times where it's like two weeks of I couldn't stand up. It was just like, oh, okay. It's, you know, it needs some extra attention. And I think it was a stress response. 
Butter
Virginia
My Butter for this episode is that I'm lifting heavier weights now! That has been really exciting. I historically thought of myself as not a strong person.
Corinne
Wait, really?!
Virginia
Emotionally strong, whatever. Like, psychologically strong, yes, like, I'm a powerful woman. I know that. But I didn't think of myself as physically strong.
Corinne
I'm just like.. all fat people are strong.
Virginia
Well, okay, I didn't start out life as a fat person, Corinne, so it's taking me a while to step into my power. I still had an inner skinny girl who thought she wasn't strong.
But you're correct. And, you know, getting into weightlifting because of Burnt Toast, really, like you being a power lifter got me interested and meeting Lauren and Anna and all that, you know, like, a lot of it has to do with, like, conversations on burnt toast that I got into weightlifting and, yeah, upgraded to a heavier. I actually got kettlebells, two heavy kettlebells.
[CW for numbers talk if that's not good for you!]
Corinne
Wait, I want to know how much.
Virginia
My previous heavyweight was 20 pounds, and like when I do deadlifts, or--
Corinne
20 pounds in each hand?

Virginia
Yeah, I could do 20 pounds in each hand for deadlifts. So like, 40 pound deadlifts, 40 pound RDLs, 40 pounds for lunges, or farmer carries. And I have even been able to use the 20 pounds with some upper body, like, sometimes bicep curls. I can do that. And so I got two 30 pound kettlebells.
Corinne
Wow.
Virginia
I can definitely do both of them for a deadlift and an RDL. I'm working on a farmer's carry, like a grocery carry type of thing. I'm working on them for some other stuff. Just playing around with this idea of oh yes, you can lift heavier. 
Corinne
Awesome.
Virginia
It's super satisfying.
Corinne
I love that. 
Virginia
What about you? 
Corinne
Well, now I feel like I should have a fitness related Butter, but I don't have one. I'm also going to show you my Butter, and I just have to grab it. 
Virginia
I'm excited. 
Corinne
Oh, okay, this is a Butter that was also sent to me. It is a Butter that I'm giving to my little baby nephew.
Virginia
Oh, I'm excited to see this.
Corinne
It is the cutest little sweater I've ever seen in my life.
Virginia
I mean! There's a sheep on it.
Corinne
It's from the brand Misha and Puff. This is an expensive baby sweater, let me tell you. It is nearing $200. It's also the softest thing I've ever felt, and it has a sheep on it.
Virginia
I mean, so no pressure to your sister, but she has to have like, five more kids so that that sweater can get enough use. Because the thing about baby sweaters is they fit for five minutes. 
Corinne
I know. It's 18 to 24 months. 
Virginia
 That's a good range. He'll be able to wear it for a while. But I'm just saying, like, she's got to have more kids now so you can have more cute babies in that sweater.
Corinne
Yeah, yeah. I want to say, like, I was kind of skeptical of, like, a wool sweater for a baby, but it's just like, it's so soft.
Virginia
I will say we are very lucky, I have several knitters in my family. So my kids had some hand\knit sweaters, including some handknit sweaters that my grandmother made for me when I was little, that we had handed down. So I think it's a totally great investment. Knitting is an incredible talent and worth supporting. 
All right, well, I hope this has everyone feeling good about the new year and what's coming up for us. I want to hear about people's fitness goals or lack thereof! We support it all.
🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
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Episode 225 Transcript
Corinne
So we dropped an episode on Thanksgiving Day, and we're back with another holiday episode. This time we're going to be looking back at your five favorite episodes of the year.
Virginia
This is so fun for me to put together every year. I think this is our second or third time doing it, and it's just really satisfying. Plus the top episodes are not always what I would have predicted! Some are, but some aren't. 
So a little background before we start: Since we moved platforms—we went from Substack to Patreon-—it was actually incredibly difficult to compare all the usual stats. The way Substack tracks episodes and the way Patreon does it—it's not an apples to apples situation. So this isn't the most scientific ranking. But I tried to find the different metrics we're interested in as podcasters —and I found the most popular episode for each of those metrics. 
1. The Episode You Shared Most: Dr. Mara Will Not Sell You A Weighted Vest
Virginia
So this one got the most shares on Substack Notes, on Instagram, etc. This is the one that people sent to other people as much as possible.
Corinne
I was recently recalling this episode because one of my friends texted me to say "What do you think about weighted vests?" And I was like, weighted vests have not gone away. 
Virginia
Did you say I wear a weighted vest all the time? Because that's what I say.
Corinne
My weighted vest is my body. Yeah, I feel like we had a little chat about it. it's one of those things people have got to try for themselves. if you're interested in weighted vest then me being like, "eff a weighted vest" isn't gonna deter you, necessarily.
Virginia
No, no. Well, and they're not harmful. Dr Mara, who is a weight-inclusive doctor and writes the excellent newsletter Your Doctor Friend, was definitely not saying they were harmful. It's just this idea that as a perimenopausal woman, can never be not strength training. it's okay to just go for a walk as well, right?
Corinne
Well, and also, just the thing of, you need to be at least as lean as possible, but put the weight on your body. Just not as part of your body,
Virginia
Yeah, only weight you can remove. That's the deep irony. Let's listen:
Virginia
Okay, so now let’s get into some related weight questions.
I was just told by my OB/GYN that excess abdominal weight can contribute to urinary incontinence in menopause. How true is this, and how much of a factor do you think weight is in this situation? And I think the you know, the unsaid question in this and in so many of these questions, is, so do I have to lose weight to solve this issue?
Mara
Yes. So this is a very common refrain I hear from patients about the relationship between BMI and sort of different processes in the body, right? I think what the listeners’ OB/GYN is getting at is the idea that mass in the abdomen and torso might put pressure on the pelvic floor. And more mass in the torso, more pressure on the pelvic floor.
But urinary incontinence is extremely complicated and it can be caused by lots of different things. So I think what the OB/GYN is alluding to is pelvic floor weakness, which is one common cause. The muscles in the pelvic floor, which is all those muscles that basically hold up your uterus, your bladder, your rectum—all of those muscles can get weak over time. But other things can cause urinary incontinence, too. Neurological changes, hormonal changes in menopause, can contribute.
Part of my size inclusive approach to primary care is I often ask myself: How would I treat a thin person with this condition? Because we always have other treatment options other than weight loss, and thin people have urinary incontinence all the time.
Virginia
A lot of skinny grandmas are buying Depends. No shame!
Mara
Totally, right? And so we have treatments for urinary incontinence. And urinary incontinence often requires a multifactorial treatment approach.
I will often recommend my patients do pelvic floor physical therapy. What that does is strengthen the pelvic floor muscles particularly if the person has been pregnant and had a vaginal delivery, those muscles can really weaken, and people might be having what we call genitourinary symptoms of menopause. Basically, as estrogen declines in the tissue of the vulva, it can make the tissue what we call friable.
Virginia
I don’t want a friable vulva! All of the language is bad.
Mara
I know, isn’t it? I just get so used to it. And then when I talk to non-medical people, I’m like, whoa. Where did we come up with this term? It just means sort of like irritable.
Virginia
Ok, I’m fine having an irritable vulva. I’m frequently irritable.
Mara
And so that can cause a sensation of having to pee all the time. And that we can treat with topical estrogen, which is an estrogen cream that goes inside the vagina and is an amazing, underutilized treatment that is extremely low risk. I just prescribe it with glee and abandon to all of my patients, because it can really help with urinary symptoms. It can help with discomfort during sex in the menopausal transition. It is great treatment.
Virginia
Itchiness, dryness…
Mara
Exactly, yeah! So I was doing a list of causes of urinary incontinence: Another one is overactive bladder, which we often use oral medications to treat. That helps decrease bladder spasticity.
So this is all to say that it’s multifactorial. It’s rare that there’s sort of one specific issue. And it is possible that for some people, weight loss might help decrease symptoms. If somebody loses weight in their abdomen, it might put less pressure on the pelvic floor, and that might ease up. But it’s not the only treatment. So since we know that weight loss can be really challenging to maintain over time for many, many reasons, I think it’s important to offer our patients other treatment options. But I don’t want to discount the idea that it’s inherently unrelated. It’s possible that it’s one factor of many that contributes to urinary incontinence.
Virginia
This is, like, the drumbeat I want us to keep coming back to with all these issues. As you said, how would I treat this in a thin person? It is much easier to start using an estrogen cream—like you said, low risk, easy to use—and see if that helps, before you put yourself through some draconian diet plan to try to lose weight.
So for the doctor to start from this place of, “well, you’ve got excess abdominal fat, and that’s why you’re having this problem,” that’s such a shaming place to start when that’s very unlikely to be the full story or the full solution.
Mara
Totally. And pelvic PT is also underutilized and amazing. Everyone should get it after childbirth, but many people who’ve never had children might benefit from it, too.
Virginia
So the excerpt we just listened to is Dr. Mara talking about urinary incontinence. The listener's doctor was implying that it was because of their weight. And we were just getting into how many health issues, especially in perimenopause and menopause, you're gonna hear that explanation for. And that's just not always true, and even when weight is a factor, there are almost always other treatment options besides weight loss. 
Corinne
It also makes sense to me that this is the most shared epsiode, because I feel like menopause is such a hot topic right now.
Virginia
Oh, it is. And we will continue to see this theme as we talk about our most popular episodes.
Corinne
Oh, interesting, yes, for sure.
2. Episode With The Highest Open Rate: You Can Count Your Protein And Still Be Nice to People
Virginia
So for folks who don't know: "Open rate" means the percentage of people on the Burnt Toast newsletter list who actually open the email each time. It's okay, we know you don't all open the emails all the time. But it's helpful for us to know which emails get more or less opens than average.
This podcast episode, when it got emailed around, had the highest open rate all year. It was the Indulgence Gospel episode where Corinne and I both talked about the diet-y or diet-adjacent behaviors we still participate in:
Virginia
Do you personally have any diet-y somethings, Corinne?
Corinne
I struggled a little bit to think of some, but I actually feel like I have so many!
First of all: Right now, I am wearing a fitness tracker.
Virginia
Oh my God.
Corinne
I wear a Fitbit. I love wearing a Fitbit. I am not one of those people who gets into a certain type of headspace about steps. I almost never look at the steps. What I love it for is the sleep tracking. I like waking up and getting a grade on my sleep, which might be—
Virginia
You like being judged first thing in the morning?
Corinne
Yeah! It’s like, good job I did great. Or I find it kind of validating sometimes, like, if you wake up feeling like shit and you’re like, Yeah I didn’t get enough REM last night.
Virginia
This is a big revelation, because I have written pieces critiquing Fitbits, which you have edited and never told me.
Corinne
I go in and out of it. I will wear it every day for months, and then sometime I’ll take it off and just not put it back on. And this is part of where, like, I’m not addicted to it.
I like getting the grade on the sleep. I like the watch element. I’ve never been a watch wearer, but then when I started wearing it and was seeing the time on my wrist, I was like, “h this is actually helpful to not be pulling my cell phone out to look at the time.”
Virginia
Yes. What must that be like?
Corinne
Sometimes at the gym, I will use the stopwatch thing.
Virginia
Sure.
Corinne
So it has a few elements that I like using that I could use my phone for, but it’s easier to just have on my wrist.
Also, I would say I’m very susceptible to supplements, which feels diet-y to me.
Virginia
This I did know about you, because you are an electrolyte girlie.
Corinne
I’m an electrolyte girlie. I like electrolytes. I like fiber. I’ve dabbled in creatine, which is another gym one.
PLUS: 
Corinne
That one we’ve talked about before because you’ve written about protein girlies or whatever, the growing popularity of people kind of tracking their protein and gotten a lot of pushback on that. Then I’m like, “Virginia, you eat protein powder.”
Virginia
Every day! Every day I have it for breakfast unless it’s like the weekend and I’m making eggs or something fancy. But yes. I am a morning protein girlie. I couldn’t tell you how many grams of protein is in it, but I do know I feel better and more functional if I have a significant amount of protein in the morning time. I have high protein needs then.
Another of mine that’s maybe a little more of a mental game I play is when it comes to my exercise routines. As you know, I mostly lift weights, I do resistance training videos, and I walk the dog, and I always have a goal that every week, four of those workouts will happen.
But if I know it’s a busy week and I’m not going to get in all four workouts, I think the math I do to decide which workouts I’m going to skip is often rooted in a diet-y place. For example, I’ll never give myself permission to cut the easiest workout.
I’m like, “Well, you have to do whatever’s feeling hardest right now in order to feel like you did enough this week.” This is definitely a diet culture holdover, because why not just do whatever workout makes sense for my schedule, or it sounds interesting, and trust that over the course of life, it’s going to be enough? But I’ll feel this pressure that whatever I’m enjoying the least, I still have to do. I don’t know, but I have a weird sort of punitive attitude towards it. Which I often recognize and talk myself out of, but, that’s the starting point. So that’s more of a mindset than a specific habit.
Corinne
I think when we look at these individual behaviors, sometimes we’re reclaiming legitimately useful things that the diet industry stole from us—
Virginia
Like Diet Coke!
Corinne
Like Diet Coke. So in these scenarios, reframing the intention can change a habit from diet-y to a form of genuine self-care.
Virginia
Like you using your FitBit for sleep, not for weight loss.
Corinne
Yes, I remember this episode.
Virginia
Do you remember my being scandalized when you shared that you were wearing a FitBit while we were recording?
Corinne
When did this come out? Because you know what actually happened since is that my FitBit broke. It just stopped working. And I think I tried to replace it, and then that one broke, and I was just like, fuck this. So currently living FitBit-free.
Virginia
Corinne is showing me her FitBit-less wrists. 
Corinne
I do miss having the time on my wrist.
Virginia
Well, they make watches.
Corinne
I've never heard of that. 
Virginia
Yeah, this is an episode from last January, and we deliberately did it in January because January is peak diet culture noise time. And we were like," let's talk about some of the diet-y things we do," because we wanted to reduce the stigma. Because it's okay that you do some diety things, you can still stand up for fat liberation. We're all just flawed people. And sometimes you can reclaim a diet practice or product, and do them in a non diet-y way! Like, your FitBit relationship really did not seem diet-y to me at all. You could pick it up and put it down again. 
Corinne
Okay, well, before we listened to the clip, I could remember what mine were, but I had completely forgotten what yours were.
Virginia
Diet Coke and protein powder! We also talked about how I have a thing where it's hard for me to give myself permission to do an easier workout. So if I'm trying to decide which workout to do, I think I should always do the one that sounds the least fun. I think I've actually made a lot of progress on that issue this year! I really feel like I'm getting a lot of joy out of my workouts lately. So that's good. 
Corinne
That's awesome. 
Virginia
I would love to hear which ones other folks are either struggling with. Like, yeah, this is a little diet-y, but you know what? It's fine. It serves me in other ways. I think it's an interesting conversation, and it's good to be honest about it. 
3. Episode With The Most Comments: How Much Did You Pay Your Pumpkin Stylist?
Virginia
Okay. Next up we have the episode with the most comments, and it's really interesting to see what generates the most conversation.
Would you have a guess about which episode it will be, before I say it?
Corinne
Let me think. I would think it would have been, like, maybe the Mel Robbins one?
Virginia
Well, we'll get to Mel Robbins. But no, the episode with the most comments was the one where we talked about my love of porch pumpkins.
Corinne
Wait, that was such a recent one.
Virginia
It was! It's because this was the episode where we talked about our problematic favs. And people really liked sharing their problematic favs. 
Corinne
That makes total sense.
Corinne
Is this just like putting a pumpkin on your porch?
Virginia
No, it's putting piles of pumpkins on your porch. 
Corinne
Oh, okay, I have seen people do that.
Virginia
Wait, there was a Wall Street Journal article. I'll find it.
Corinne
When I see people do this, I'm like, I'm tired. I don't have the energy to be stacking pumpkins on my porch.
Virginia
According to the WSJ, "Families are paying north of $1,000 to create Insta perfect tableaus for porches and yards."
Corinne
Okay, so how much did you pay for your pumpkin stylist?
Virginia
Let me tell you about me and my porch pumpkins. I've been craving this look for a few years, ever since Julia Marcum first posted it. And she bought fake pumpkins, which she just keeps on hand and brings out every year to make her pile of pumpkins. And I was like, well, that's actually a more like responsible way to do it, right? To buy and reuse your pumpkins every year?
Except then I priced out her pumpkin collection, and it was like, $800 and I said to my then-husband, like, should I buy all these pumpkins? And he said, no.
Corinne
And that's why you got divorced.
Virginia
Exactly, yes. No — he was right. But every fall, I'm like, I kind of wish I had that. It looks pretty. I'm not going to spend that money, but it does look cool. So then this year the kids wanted to get pumpkins. And so Jack and I took them to a little local pumpkin patch, and I discovered the trick is to go the Saturday before Halloween. The pumpkins are on deep discount. And I now have 14 pumpkins on my front porch that I spent only $70 on.
Corinne
14 pumpkins is a lot. 
Virginia
It is a lot! They just kept giving us more. I paid $70 for maybe, like, seven pumpkins. And I was still like, well, $10 a pumpkin. We'll feed them to the chickens. Jack's like, I can bake something with this cheese pumpkin. I was like, it's it's fine. And then they were like, here. Take more. Take more. I was like, well, now the pumpkins are basically paying me to be on my porch.
Corinne
So funny. 
Virginia
I think it looks delightful and harvest-y, and I like that. It's a trend that works for both Halloween and Thanksgiving. So you can leave it up for a while. And then you could feed the pumpkins to your chickens, or bake with them, if that was the type of person you were, or throw them in your woods and let the deer eat them, which is what I would also do. 
Corinne
When I was at my mom's house in Maine, we did get a pumpkin for her front steps, and it immediately got eaten by squirrels.
Virginia
Another reason to wait until the Saturday before Halloween. So you're not trying to make this trend last all fall. I think it's also like, at this time of year, I'm getting sad about the leaves falling. I'm getting sad about the coming cold, anything that makes me like anything better. It's a pile of pumpkins. They're pretty, that's all.
Corinne
They are. The pumpkins in this photo are very beautiful.
Virginia
Yeah, no, that's the key. You don't just get orange pumpkins, you get the Cinderella pumpkins, the fancy gourds and whatnot.
Corinne
And also, how is this WSJ article/photo, leaving out the fact that there are 14 foot tall skeletons in the background?
Virginia
Yes, in that photo, they are also doing the very tall skeletons, which is a trend I'm not on because I don't know where to store it. Where does one store the 12-foot skeleton the rest of the year?
Corinne
I don't know. And those are also like $500, I think.
Virginia
They're not cheap. That's like $2,000 in Halloween decorations just on their porch. It's a commitment. And I didn't go that route, but I just enjoy it. That's all.
Corinne
Did you put them out and step back and rearrange them? 
Virginia
I sure did.
Virginia
Now that I think about it, this episode is very similar to the episode where we talked about our diet-y habits. People just like us to talk about problematic stuff, I guess?
Corinne
They like us to be three dimensional people with flaws.
Virginia
I'm here for it. These are the most fun episodes to record, too, I think. So we need more ideas on this theme! I definitely would re-do problematic faves in a year or so to see if we have new ones.
What are other what are other ways you want to hear about our flaws? Tell us in the comments. What else do you want us to fess up to? We'll think about it. 
4. The Episode That Converted The Most Paid Listeners: Mel Robbins Has a PHD in Diet Culture
Okay, now we get to Mel Robbins! The episode that converted the most paid listeners is a very important metric for us as podcast business ladies. Paywalled episodes exist to convert new paid subscribers, and that is how we pay all of our bills, and survive this lifestyle of making internet content.
So I'm not shocked this was our biggest converter. Well, I guess my only surprise is that I honestly wasn't super aware of who Mel Robbins was before we did this episode. But then I realized she was, like, a pretty big celebrity, so it makes sense that this converted a lot.
Virginia
Do you want to talk us through the morning routine post?
Corinne
So, “this is the morning routine that’ll supercharge your energy all day.”
Virginia
“Backed by science,” that’s what she says.
Corinne
Starts with getting up when the alarm goes off. Once again, it’s not bad advice. Like, yes. But also is Mel Robbins telling you to do it going to make you do it? I don’t know.
Virginia
Sometimes you’re just not going to do that, and you might still have an okay day. It doesn’t mean the whole day fell apart because you didn’t get up the second your alarm went off.
Corinne
The next thing, making your bed, tidying your space—another very common self help tip!
Virginia
It’s “the simplest way to practice discipline,” Corinne. “A promise kept no matter what.”
Corinne
I’m going to be honest, I feel okay with the first two. Number three, “high five yourself in the mirror.” Like, no. I’m never going to do that. I hate that. I really hate it.
Virginia
I can’t stop laughing. She’s so serious in the photo. She has a selfie of her high fiving herself, and she’s so serious in the photo. Like she is earnestly high fiving herself.
Corinne
Let me tell you, “giving yourself a high five in the mirror rewires your brain to focus on self love and positive reinforcement.”
Virginia
The science behind that is all in her book, The High Five Habit. So there you go. The PhD level science that she’s done to confirm. I just imagine saying to someone actually struggling with depression or anxiety, like, “why don’t you just high five yourself in the mirror?” And, like, I think they would be justified in throat punching you. Like, “I’m sorry your mom just died. Have you tried high fiving yourself in the mirror?” Like, fuck you.
Corinne
This is the thing, right? This is what we talk about. It’s like, exercising does make us feel better, but you can’t tell someone struggling, “Just exercise.” Like, this advice is good. Like, get out of bed, have a glass of water. Exercise. And, no one needs that advice. Everyone knows that.
Virginia
High fiving yourself in the mirror I’m going to say is not good advice. Like, I’m going to say for most of us, that’s not going to be transformative in any way. It’s just going to be dumb.
Corinne
I have been surprised to see how much staying power her book has had. I'm still seeing people talking about it! And one of the things we talked about in this episode was the scandal around it being...
Virginia
Plagiarized, question mark? Allegedly plagiarized? Certainly, some lack of clarity about source material and original authors?
Corinne
I just kind of thought that would make people stop paying attention to that book. But it really has not.
Virginia
No, does not seem to have made a dent. Also, I would have thought people would have stopped paying attention when she told everyone to high five ourselves. And yet, here we are. Have you high fived yourself yet in the mirror?
Corinne
Absolutely not, have you?
Virginia
Absolutely not, never will. Truly terrible advice. And frankly, very patronizing towards anyone struggling with actual mental health issues. This is the last thing you need to hear, in my opinion.
Corinne
I think I agree with that.
5. The Most Downloaded Episode of 2025: Is Dr. Mary Claire Haver Making Menopause a Diet?
Corinne
Oh, back to the menopause.
Virginia
Back to the menopause. This was a great episode we did with Cole Kazdin, an Emmy Award-winning television journalist and author of What's Eating Us: Women, Food, and the Epidemic of Body Anxiety. Cole came on Burnt Toast about two years ago to talk about What's Eating Us when it first came out. It's a really great resource about the industry of eating disorder recovery.
And then Cole emailed me and was like, "Can we please talk about menopause and why it is a diet, and why I think so many millennials are going to get eating disorders in the season of life because of the diet culture being created here."
Virginia
All right, we are going chat a little bit about one of the folks that we see on the socials talking about menopause relentlessly —Dr. Mary Claire Haver.
Cole
She wrote the book The New Menopause, which is a really great, significant book in many ways in terms of providing information that has never been provided before.
Virginia
Oh yes, this is @drmaryclaire.
Cole
When I bought her book, I saw that she has also written The Galveston Diet, and I said to myself, hmm. And then bought the book anyway. And you know now it all makes sense. Because The Galveston Diet is is very geared towards the perimenopausal, menopausal lose belly fat, but also have more energy help your menopause symptoms, right? How can you knock that? Come on.
And so it's very sort of interwoven with all the diet stuff. So it's not surprising that she would bring so much of that up in her menopause book and a lot on her Instagram. She wears a weighted vest all the time. I thought, “Should I get a weighted vest?” And I again, I wasn't sure if I was doing it for menopause diet culture reasons, or I just love to lift heavy things reasons. I thought, “That could be cool. Maybe that'll be fun. I'll just wear a weighted vest around the house, like this woman, who's the menopause authority.”
I guess what’s coming across in this interview is how vulnerable I am to any advertising!
Virginia
No, it's relatable. We all are vulnerable! I mean, I'm looking at her Instagram right now and I'm simultaneously exhausted at the prospect of wearing a weighted vest around my house and, like…well…
Cole
Wouldn't that be convenient? But let me save you a minute here, because when you go to whatever your favorite website is to buy weighted vests, and you look at the reviews, it's split between people saying, “This is the best weighted vest [insert weighted vest brand here],” and other people saying, “Gee, the petroleum smell hasn't gone away after two months.”
Virginia
Okay. I can't be walking around my house smelling petroleum. No, thank you.
Cole
Because they're filled with sand that comes from who knows where, and the petroleum smell doesn't go away. And according to some reviews I read—because I did go down the rabbit hole with this—it actually increases if you sweat. So I thought, You know what, I can do this in other ways.
Virginia
I'm sure there are folks for whom the weighted vest is a revelation. And, it's a very diet culture thing to need to be alway optimizing an activity. You can't just go for a walk. You need to be walking with a weighted vest or with weighted ankles. Why do we need to add this added layer of doing the most to everything?
And I'm looking at a reel now where she talks about the supplements she's taking. Dr. Mary Claire is taking a lot of supplements.
Cole
So many supplements!
Virginia
Vitamin D, K, omega threes, fiber, creatine, collagen, probiotic… That's a lot to be taking every day. That's a really expensive way to manage your health. Supplements are not covered by insurance. There's a lot of privilege involved in who can pursue gold standard healthy menopause lifestyle habits.
Cole
And it's always great to ask the question, who's getting rich off of the thing that I'm supposed to be doing for my health? Because it's never you.
Virginia
Yes. She keeps referencing the same brand — Pause.
Cole
It's hers. It's her brand.
Virginia
Oh there you go. So, yeah, taking advice from someone with a supplement line, I think, is really complicated. This is why it's so difficult to find a dermatologist as well. Any medical professional who's selling their own product line has gone into a gray area between medical ethics and capitalism that is very difficult to steer through.
Virginia
I think Dr. Mary Claire Haver is very similar to Mel Robbins in a lot of ways. I mean, she is a medical doctor, Mel Robbins has no relevant credentials to tell people what to do with their lives. But they have the same kind of energy on social media. They are both tiny women with a really good blowout telling you how to run your life. And you do not have to dig far to get into their super diet-y and anti-fat content. It's all right there at the surface.
Corinne
Yikes. No, thank you.
Virginia
But this is a good episode. If you missed it, if you missed any of these, I recommend giving them a listen.
What do you notice about these five? Any standout themes or observations? Other than, yes, we're all obsessed with menopause.
Corinne
Definitely menopause. And like you alluded to earlier... flaws.
Virginia
It's interesting that there were two about problematic white lady influencers, which has been a cornerstone of Burnt Toast coverage for a while. We do a few of those every year, so I'm not surprised two of them made it into the top five. But then the others in the top five were like Corinne and Virginia just being humans.
So that's kind of like a nice counterpoint. Because it's us just being messy people, right? 
Corinne
Two were about menopause, and two were about problematic white ladies, and two were about us having flaw.
Virginia
That's right, yes. One was about both menopause and a problematic white lady. We had some overlap, yes. Then the ones that were not in those two categories were us just saying, "here's some weird stuff we do."
So, all right, more hot mess express in 2026. We can do it. 
Corinne
Oh God. 
Virginia
I mean, honestly, it's easier than trying not to.
Corinne
Do you have any further thoughts about those topics?
Virginia
No, but I'm curious to hear from listeners if you have a favorite among those five, or if you have a different favorite episode for the year?
There were also a lot of little episodes that didn't hit the top metric on something but did generate great discussion or that I'm just really fond of. One that I really wanted to get in here was the interview with Jessica Slice, author of Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World.
That was one that was second place for a couple of these categories. It did generate a bunch of comments. It did generate a bunch of shares, and I feel like really resonated with folks. So that's an honorable mention.
Corinne
That's one that really stuck with me. I've just thought about a lot since I listened to it. I would say also maybe, the one with Lisa Sibbett.
Virginia
Yes! Lisa who writes The Auntie Bulletin. I loved that conversation with Lisa about community and divesting from consumerism. Perpetual Burnt Toast goals. Oh, it was such a good year making the podcast. It really was.
🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Butter
Corinne
Okay, I'm going to endorse a problematic Butter.
Virginia
Oh, a problematic Butter! We love it.
Corinne
Borderline. I mean, okay. I'm going to endorse this product, which was sent to me. So it was gifted. I received it for free. 
Virginia
Okay. Thank you for disclosing.
Corinne
I was just like, whatever. It's a lotion. It's called Talova. And I realized once I got it that it's made from...beef tallow.
Virginia
Oh, that you're rubbing on your body?
Corinne
I did have that realization after I started using it and really liking it. And I feel like beef tallow is one of those things where I'm like, I hear it and I'm like, that's MAHA-coded.
Virginia
Very Huberman Bro. Yes. 
Corinne
It's like, the crossover point between lefty crunchy mom heading into RFK territory. 
Virginia
Oh dear. 
Corinne
That's why this is a problematic fav. But I started using it before I realized that it was beef tallow. And I was using it, and I was just like, why is this stuff so good? I love it. And then I looked at the ingredients, and there's tallow and emu oil.
Virginia
Oh, no. Aren’t emu endangered?
Corinne
I don't know. I'm also like, is Emu oil what it sounds like? Okay, but I will say it's a body balm. It's incredible. It smells so good. It doesn't smell like beef or emu, it has a citrusy scent. It's my winter in the desert thing. It's so good. I love it.
Virginia
I am confirming on the Internet that emu oil is a traditional Australian moisturizer derived from the fat of the emu bird, used topically for skin and hair care. Okay, Down Under listeners, we're going to need you to weigh in on this. Is Corinne being problematic using emu oil? Do we need to cancel her? Or is she allowed?
Corinne
If emu oil is problematic, I think the brand could be canceled, not me. But anyways, I really like this product, and I'm sorry to say, it's made with beef tallow, and it's it really working for my dry desert skin, and it smells good.
Virginia
All right, all right. 
Well, I'm going to give a non-problematic Butter, just so we don't end the year on such a controversial note. My Butter, as you all are listening to this on Christmas Day, or perhaps during the winter break, is to go take a nap. I took a really great nap the day after Thanksgiving, and I thought to myself, why do I not take more naps on holidays? Usually because I'm busy hosting them and parenting my children, and it's difficult to do. And I'm here to say, if that's you as well, take 30 minutes just stop whatever you're doing and go lay down in a room by yourself and close your eyes or read a book, whatever. It is your holiday as well, and you deserve that.
Corinne
I'm a huge nap fan. 
Virginia
I am not a lifelong napper, but I've been getting into it recently. Or even if you don't sleep, just take some quiet, no people time. I think that can be really helpful when you're in the thick of holidays. 
Corinne
As a big introvert, 30 minutes alone can really turn things around for me.
Virginia
And make you like the rest of the day! Instead of getting increasingly spacier and grumpier. So yeah, I want everyone to go take a nap either today or tomorrow or whenever.
All right, this was a super fun episode. 
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!