The Burnt Toast Podcast

You are listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole Smith. Today my conversation is with Keri Harvey.
Keri is an NASM certified personal trainer and a pain-free performance specialist specializing in beginner strength. She's a part owner of Form Fitness Brooklyn and has recently gotten into powerlifting. She just competed in her first sanctioned meet and won first place in her weight class.
Keri began her career in personal training after her own fitness journey transformed from aesthetic focused to working on feeling strong and capable in everyday life, a very Burnt Toast trajectory. Her training style involves feeling less focused on the number on the scale and more on how people feel. She's a firm believer in setting performance-related goals, such as feeling less winded after the dreaded subway station steps. Keri was featured as one of Self magazine’s Everyday Athletes and collaborated as a fitness expert in Shape, Self, Livestrong, and Women’s Health magazines. Her ultimate goal is to help cultivate an inclusive and welcoming environment in the gym, and for all of her clients to leave each session feeling strong and powerful.
Keri is hosting a pop-up strength class called Strong on Purpose in Houston, Texas on April 11th.
Keri joined me to chat about her relationship to fitness and movement, getting stitched by toxic gym bros on TikTok, misconceptions about fat personal trainers and so much more. We've also got answers to some of your listener questions. This is a great episode. I think you're going to get so much out of it.
Here is Keri.
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Episode 240 Transcript
Virginia 
We are really big fans of yours here at Burnt Toast. For anyone who doesn't already follow you on Instagram or TikTok, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your work and your relationship with fitness and movement?
Keri 
I am a certified personal trainer. I currently am a part owner at a gym called Form Fitness Brooklyn, which is a personal training studio. The reason that I'm here and the reason that I exist in this field is because there's not a lot of body diversity in the fitness industry. I wanted to be a part of helping other people feel seen.
I live in a larger body and I show up every day in this body and do a lot of really cool things with it because I want to and because I want other people to feel like they can, as well. My relationship with fitness is one of exploration, being curious about what I can do and trying to approach it from a viewpoint of being balanced in acknowledging the fact that no one is ever at one hundred percent.
I'm trying to make sure that I don't stress myself out too much trying to be perfect and just focusing on showing up as me and seeing what I can do. It has done wonders for my mental health and my physical health, because I'm showing up consistently.
Virginia 
I love that. I was just watching a reel you did about working out with a migraine, which as a fellow migraine girlie, I found deeply relatable. That feeling of, This isn't going to be the best, but it's probably going to make me feel a little bit better. And I'm annoyed about it, but I'm here anyway.
Immediately, I'm like, Why don't I live in Brooklyn so I can come to your gym? We need more body diversity. We need more of this whole ethos in the fitness space, for sure.
Keri 
Absolutely.
Virginia 
If I remember correctly, you went viral on TikTok. Some gym bro ... Oh, the gym bros of TikTok. I could do a whole podcast just on that, but we'll move on. A gym bro stitched you as an example of who not to hire as a fitness trainer - sorry, I can't even say that without laughing - then another less gym bro stitched him and schooled him on anti-fat bias. Then you made a response video. Am I remembering that narrative correctly?
Keri 
That's absolutely how it went.
Virginia 
How did you feel about all of that? Did you feel supported in that moment by the other guy's response?
Keri 
That's such a loaded question. I did feel supported, and at the same time, it is a little strange having people stitch your videos, whether it's to be positive or negative, and not reach out and tell you that they're doing it.
Virginia 
That feels like an etiquette breach, for sure.
Keri 
It feels like people are talking about you behind your back, whether it's positive or negative. So that was a little bit weird. However, I did feel supported in knowing that there are people in this industry who are not poisoned by the idea that the way someone's body looks tells you about them as a person, or that there is something wrong with the way that someone's body looks.
One person who stitched my video and had positive things to say, his statement really stuck with me. He said that 'The world is really big and there are people with all kinds of goals. And so Keri may be right for someone, even if she's not right for you.' I've really taken that with me because that's the truth.
Everyone has different goals fitness-wise, and you should have your own personal goals. But the world is very big and just because one trainer is not right for you doesn't mean they're not right for someone else and vice versa.
Virginia 
I've been on the receiving end of some gym bro critiques. I always think, Sir, I'm not for you. You are not for me. Why are you spending your time on this? How much am I bugging you just by existing that you needed to spend this time to make this video?
I'm not going to lie, there's something a little satisfying about the idea that I'm not thinking about him at all, but he is so annoyed he has to make a video about us. That feels like a little bit of a win maybe.
Keri 
Absolutely. I always think about like the fact that they're raising their blood pressure arguing with their phone because I'm not wasting my time arguing back.
Virginia 
And you know they're so careful with their macros and everything, and yet to risk it.
Keri 
Don't risk it. You're going to pass out. You should calm down.
Virginia 
We love your content. You make really great videos. I used to do a lot of video making. I took a long break from it. Getting back in the game is not easy. There is a lot of work that goes into making Instagram content and TikTok content. I don't think people understand that.
I wonder how you think about the importance of showing yourself working out in a gym because that representation, like you were saying, matters so much.
Keri 
I am very, I think the word that I want to use here is purposeful, about the way I show up in the gym and the way I show myself on social media inside of a gym.
Because I have Form Fitness, I don't have to go to a big box gym and workout. However, I do - one, because I like to get out of the space. And two, because I want to know what it's like for my client who's like, 'Listen, I'm really nervous about walking into this gym because I don't know what that's like if I'm just in this small room where I know that everyone views fitness and bodies the way that I do.'
I walk into spaces that make me uncomfortable so that I can feel what my clients feel. Then when I'm filming content, I'm also really not worried about "Can you see my belly outline?" "Is my arm fat hanging out of the bra behind me?" Because that's just bodies. They move and jiggle because you are moving. That's how that works.
I really try to make sure that when I'm posting online, I'm showing you that too because not a single person stops me in the gym and says, "Hey, your belly." No one would ever do that, and I want you to know that.
Virginia 
It's a lot like going to a public swimming pool in the summer and being like, Oh wait, it's just bodies. Everything we see online about getting in a swimsuit is actually bullshit because everyone's here just to cool off.
Keri 
The more that I have found freedom in that, the more I realize bodies are so beautiful because they're different. That's what makes them so beautiful. Why would I be worried about looking like someone else? There's so much beauty in my body.
The other thing that I was going to say about filming at the gym is my consistent showing up there has helped me make friends with people who don't look anything like me and have different goals than me. I posted a video about that a little while after the internet trolls started coming, about the fact that the people on the internet are not the same people who are inside the gym. The ones who are doing the work, who are showing up every day - they don't think anything like those trolls on the internet.
I have a lot of really cool relationships with people who look nothing like me and have different goals than me, but we're there and we're working hard. You can work on your stuff. I'm going to work on my stuff and no one is rude or nasty in any way. The gym can be a safe place and I want people to see that.
Virginia
I really need to hear this. I am a longtime home weightlifter and I definitely am getting to the point where the amount of weights I would need to buy at home is like, you know, the math is starting to not math.
As a fat woman, I have a lot of gym fear. As a formerly very un-athletic child, all my physical education trauma kicks in. It's so real. I have had some not great experiences in gyms, although as we're talking about this, I'm realizing I've had those experiences fat and I've had them thin. Some of it is just being a woman in a male-dominated space. Anyone listening who feels similarly terrified of the gym, I really get it. It's so real.
What you're saying is really helpful.
Keri 
I'm glad. At the end of the day, just walking outside, unfortunately we encounter some characters, but I think that when you feel comfortable in a space because you know that you belong there, you're able to focus on you. For the most part, that's what everybody else in the gym is doing, too.
If they're not, then that's a huge issue that has absolutely nothing to do with you. But if you are able to show up enough times to start feeling a little more comfortable there, then you won't be as worried about what other people around you are thinking, because nine times out of 10, they're only thinking, 'How many reps did I just do?' and 'Is my form right?'
Virginia 
'When do I have to leave to pick up my kid?' It's so true.
It is the deep irony of fatphobia that all the trolls are like, 'We're so concerned for your health, we're so concerned for your health.' And yet also fat people are made to feel uncomfortable in health-promoting spaces. Which is it guys?
Keri 
I had that happen literally today. I opened my Instagram and someone had commented on a video, "You're saying this is your favorite workout, but you're still fat."
Yes. This is the body I live in. And yes this is my favorite workout. You literally just repeated what I said to you.
But that's the thing, right? You're complaining that I'm not moving my body, and yet I'm showing you that I am.
Virginia 
Literally right in front of you. It's just a reminder yet again that you'll never get anywhere with internet trolls, and that's not who we do any of this for.
Keri 
Absolutely. That's right.
Virginia 
On a related note to just all the things you are doing in the gym, I think thin people don't always realize, but fat people are very strong. I feel like often people would look at me and not realize how strong I am, but I can carry the 20 pound bag of cat litter down the stairs to the basement. I can carry my third grader up to bed, which is a real accomplishment at this point.
What other misconceptions do you find people have about what fat people can and can't do, especially in fitness spaces?
Keri
In general, there's a lot of people with the idea that fat people just aren't athletic, don't have the ability to be athletic. I'm in the same boat as you. I did not grow up as an athletic kid. I did whatever I could to avoid P.E.
When we look at sports, and even the Olympics, when we see all of these bodies, some are fat bodies, some are smaller bodies, and they're all able to do all these amazing things. It's a reminder that the size of someone's body has nothing to do with their abilities. I think there are a lot of people who still don't realize that.
Virginia 
I think gracefulness is another one. People don't think fat people can be graceful in the same way or coordinated in the same way. Something I've really appreciated about your content is I think you move really gracefully. I think it's a narrative that we're sometimes in our heads about, especially forms of fitness that require faster movements or things along those lines.
Keri 
I'm thinking about jumping right now. That's a big one.
Virginia 
People have a lot of fear of jumping.
Keri 
Absolutely. And, you know, there are people in all sizes of bodies who experience joint pain. That's a thing that no one is exempt from. However, I think that when you learn what things your body likes and what things it doesn't, that's great because there are some forms of movement that you may choose to not participate in. I never want anyone to just assume that they can't do certain things. You don't know until you try. When you try, you also need to be able to learn how to scale up, scale back and figure out what feels right.
Virginia 
You have a great reel about making child's pose work in a bigger body. Sometimes this assumption of, 'I can't do this type of movement.' It's like, 'Well, maybe that's because you've only seen a thin body do it.' Actually, you totally can. It just looks different for your body.
Keri 
I love being the first person to show someone that a squat can be wider if you need some room for your belly because it's always such a light bulb moment. I'm sure it was the same for me when I first was starting out, but then when I actually widened my stance and was able to sit into it, it was like, Ah. It was amazing.
Virginia 
It feels so good.
Keri 
The realization that there's nothing wrong with your body. You just need to adjust.
Virginia 
On the flip side, what you were just saying about joint pain is making me think how sometimes we assume body size is the reason we won't be good at something. It's actually nothing to do with the body size. You're stiff, but thin people are also stiff. There are other examples of that too, right?
Keri
Absolutely. A lot of us are sitting at a desk all day long. We're hunched over a computer, hunched over our phone. All of these things create stiffness. All of these things result in maybe a little bit of joint pain for some people.
There's also the genetic side of things and medications. This has nothing to do with the size of your body. It's depends on the person type of situation.
Virginia
That's really helpful for people to keep in mind.
We're going to get into some listener questions, but before we do, I want to make sure we talk a little bit about rest, both literally and figuratively. Obviously, your body needs rest in between workouts, but in the world, especially right now, our hearts need rest, like we need rest. What is your relationship to rest like right now?
Keri 
I do not play about my rest. As someone in a field where I'm constantly people-facing and every hour that I spend with my clients is one where I want to know what's going on with you, I want to be there for you both in the workout and also just in life in general, so I feel like I'm giving a lot. I'm happy to do it, but I also need a moment to refill the cup.
I don't play about my sleep. I am asleep at about the same time every night. If there are times when I feel like I need to take more time for myself, I need a slower morning or I need to cancel some plans with a friend because I really need to be by myself, I do those things. I honor those things because I know that if my body is saying it, it probably means that it's been feeling that way for a little while, and now here's the little alert.
Virginia 
It's so important to listen to those alerts and give ourselves permission. I have a 7th grader and we're getting to those years in school where the schedule is getting really busy with play rehearsal and activities. She came home yesterday after a super long day. I know she'd had a test she wasn't quite ready for, she'd had rehearsal and I just looked at her and asked, "Do you want dinner on a tray in your room in your bed so you don't have to talk to anyone right now?" And she was like, "Oh my God, yes." And I was like, yeah, you need like no people time. You need total chill time for an hour and we'll see you in a bit.
Not that like my parents wouldn't have done that for me, but I just thought I like that I'm showing her, You pushed hard today. You didn't feel like going to school in the morning. You got there, you did the test, you did the stuff, but then you come home and you get to really prioritize rest as well.
Keri 
I want to circle back to what we were talking about at the very beginning when you mentioned that post where I went to workout, even though I had a migraine. I'm definitely learning how to honor when my body needs rest.
I think that rest is just as important as movement. There are some days where I have migraines and I decide I need to stay in bed. I need to put my headache cap on and no lights, everything's turned off. Then there are some days where I don't feel great, but I know that if I just go and I move slowly and I pay attention to what feels doable today and what doesn't, I feel a little better. I'm learning to not count the day where I don't go to workout as a failure.
That's something that's tough for me, but I'm learning it because I'm honoring the fact that if I don't slow down now, I'm going to burn-out at the end.
Virginia 
Recovering perfectionists unite on that one.
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Listener Questions
Virginia 
Let's do a couple of listener questions. A few folks in the Burnt Toast Chat had some fitness-related questions and we thought you will have great expert advice. First up, Sarah says:
I have started and stopped a mobility exercise program 3 times since November. I get into a groove and I find it really makes my life in my body easier (putting shoes on, easing aches and pains) and then (typically when my PMDD kicks in 😔) I have no energy or drive to do it. It's only 15 minutes 4x a week, purposefully not too taxing a commitment. I have had a poor history with exercise and totally stopped about 10 years ago. But as I approach 50 I feel stiff and sore and everything feels hard. I have a million reasons to keep going but I'm not. Any thoughts on how to stay consistent or weather the ups and downs of motivation? I also notice that when I'm doing it, I'm more aware of my body and thoughts of body dissatisfaction creep in, when otherwise I have become pretty comfortable with my size.
So, a lot going on there, but it definitely relates to this conversation we're having about rest and movement and when you need what.
Keri 
I want to talk about the motivation piece for a moment because what we know about motivation is that it comes in waves. I've found there's that initial motivation when I've decided I want to do this thing, I want to move my body more, and then it starts to wane a bit. Then maybe it picks back up when you see the payoff.
The payoff in this case being increased mobility. In that moment where you're not motivated anymore, it's really important to signal to our brains that we should still get the thing done. However, you should give yourself permission to scale it back. I think that four times a week for 15 minutes is amazing, but maybe you allow yourself to go for two to three times that week that you're feeling a little bit less motivation. It's important to do the thing because we see that it's making you feel better. However, maybe you're asking for too much in that moment where you're struggling.
Virginia 
I think even if you are like, 'Well, it's only four times a week. It's only 15 minutes. That feels so doable.' Bottom line is it's not feeling doable. Three times, two times, even one time is better than zero times.
Keri 
Absolutely. That's right.
Virginia 
That all or nothing mentality is such a killer with this kind of thing. What are your thoughts about the piece where she says that moving your body more can make you more aware of your body and bring up some of those negative thoughts?
I do think a lot of us, as we're working on body neutrality, whatever you want to call it, sometimes the easiest path through is a little bit of disconnection from your body because reconnecting can be painful when you're still working through some of that stuff.
Keri 
What has been helpful for me and several of my clients is to focus on performance-related things. Maybe that means there's a goal you set for yourself, even in the mobility area. Maybe it's "Can I do an extra rep of something?" "Can I work towards doing an extra rep?" "Can I work towards feeling a little less winded after I do a certain exercise?"
Paying attention to the progress you're making can be helpful. Sometimes we're only focused on 'This was so tough today,' or 'This was way easier two months ago than it is now, or two years ago than it is now.'
I would really encourage Sarah to find ways to pay attention to what her body can do and not what it's not doing.
Virginia 
When the shoes start to be easier to put on, that's a win. Celebrate that win.
I'm also rereading your question Sarah and I just want to say that you said you've started and stopped the program three times since November. It's March, so that means for about six months, you've actually been doing more than you're giving yourself credit for. Maybe you took some weeks off, but the fact that you've done it three times since November seems good. It's not nothing.
Keri 
Exactly. I work four days a week and usually those are the days that I work out. However, there are definitely days where the workout doesn't get done and that's just life. When that happens, when you know you've got to take care of the kids, or when work is just so stressful and you run out of time, that's not a failure. That's just life. We show up again the next day. It's never going to be perfect.
But I agree with you. I don't want you to discredit yourself and think that you haven't been doing a lot because sounds like you've been working.
Virginia 
Frame it less as quitting and like, this wasn't the week for it and now I'm back to it.
Keri 
We're pausing.
Virginia 
The next question is from Allison, who writes:
I'm really struggling in my relationship with movement right now. I feel better when I move. I have more energy and less back pain. I know intellectually that moving my body regularly in some way is beneficial to me and yet I am just really struggling to do it. I started PT in September for my back pain and it went away so quickly once I was regularly moving. Now my PT is winding down and because my work-outs are less frequent, the back pain is back. I am so sick of this discomfort and yet even that physical pain is not enough to motivate me to even go for a walk around the block. I'm a sedentary person. I am content with that, but I also want the longer term benefits of being a person who moves regularly. I really don't know how to just make it happen. Any advice is welcome. What worked? What clicked? Or is this like cooking dinner for my family every night where I have to just do it even though some days I'd rather just walk into the woods and not come back.
Very relatable about cooking dinner. I'll say that.
Keri 
What has worked for me has been finding forms of movement that I've enjoyed. I also want to give Allison credit for reaching out to a PT. That's something a lot of people don't think about, but when there is something like back pain and it's affecting your daily life, that is super important.
So kudos to you for doing that. I would see if you can explore some other forms of movement that you actually enjoy. Maybe it's dancing, maybe it's swimming, maybe it's yoga. Whatever it is, just finding something that is enjoyable, that really helped me to keep showing up.
Then, even when I wasn't motivated, I was still just slightly curious enough about like, What else can my body do? That kept me showing up. We said it a little bit in the last question, but it is annoying and good at the same time that when you start moving your body and learning how to listen to it, it talks to you a lot.
It starts speaking to you and emphasizing that we need rest and we need movement almost all the time. But like the whole cooking dinner for your family every night type of situation, every once in a while you're rewarded with the family sitting at the table and the meal's really good and the shoulders are bouncing as you're eating. That happens with our workouts, too. It's not every workout, but every once in a while you have a really good one where every once in a while you're kind of excited to go do it, and that is really what kind of has to tide us over until the next time we have a workout like that.
Virginia 
It's so interesting how, I think maybe because of social media or different narratives we get, we expect every workout to be like a Rocky montage of huge accomplishment and triumph. It's like, no, it's just Tuesday morning. Like, I'm just doing this and then I've got to get on a work call.
Keri 
Which is why it is important to try to find what you enjoy doing because most of them are definitely like, Let me just get this thing over with. I'm huffing and puffing and breathing hard.
Virginia 
I was going to also add that I think PT is amazing, and I think it's very normal to get bored with it because they are very repetitive exercises. Trying something really different might be fun and invigorating. If you can combine it with being with a friend. For some of us, joy in the movement itself is difficult, but you can pair movement with something joyful, if that makes sense. That can be super helpful. I have a standing weekly walk date with a friend of mine and even if I don't really feel like moving, I want to see her. I'm going to show up.
Keri 
I love that.
Virginia 
It is a tricky thing. I think both these questions really underscore this idea we have that once you figure out fitness, you're going to do that fitness forever. There should be a set it and forget it option, and that just really isn't the case with bodies.
Keri 
Not at all. Bodies require different things at different times. Also, our brains want different stimulation. It's ok to move around and find new things you enjoy. It's ok to be a beginner at said thing. It's ok to be bad at it, because as long as you are trying, that's really all that matters.
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Butter
Virginia 
We end every episode of Burnt Toast with Butter, which is what I call our recommendation segment. I would love to know, Keri, what is your Butter right now?
Keri 
It's women's sports. That's my Butter right now, in every form of it. I feel like we're seeing a lot more of women's sports being supported, which is so beautiful and it's so important, especially for young ones. I feel like if I had seen more women's sports being supported and spoken about when I was a kid, and seen all of the different body types playing all of these sports, I would've felt like I might've had a better relationship with fitness at that age, and also, more comfortable in my body at that age. It's so important to be seeing this right now.
Virginia 
Who's your favorite athlete?
Keri 
I love Ilona Maher. I'm also a huge basketball fan, so I'm loving everything women's basketball.
Virginia 
You and my mom. My mom's hardcore. I like it too, but she's all in, except she can't watch games live. She's a Huskies fan and she gets too worried, so she checks the score and then she watches it later, if they win by enough.
Keri 
I love that. I love that she knows herself.
Virginia 
It's too much pressure. She can only watch if she knows they're up by 50 points.
Keri 
Which is not hard for them.
Virginia 
Exactly. Huskies, they're doing fine.
My Butter, since we talked quite a bit about migraines, and you reminded me, I don't think I've talked about my migraine cap on this podcast yet. I have this - it's the dorkiest thing, but it's so great. It's this like black, thick, neoprene kind of fabric and it somehow stays cold, so you put it over your head and it covers your eyes. It stays cold and feels so good.
Keri 
It's so amazing.
Virginia 
They're game changing. They really are. I've had migraines since the '90s and I just got one of these last year, and I'm like, Where has this been all my life?
Keri 
A client of mine gifted me one, and it does look so funny. It is a very funny looking thing, but I put it on, I put on an audiobook and I was just knocked out and it was wonderful.
Virginia 
I often am like woken up by bad headaches, like early morning and I still want to get back to sleep, so I put that on and then I can like get another hour of sleep. It's good stuff.
Keri, thank you so much. This was such a delight. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work, even if we're not in Brooklyn, although I might need to make a field trip.
Keri 
I think you should visit. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at kharveyfit. You can also find me on the Form Fitness Brooklyn app, which we just launched a couple months ago. It's a strength training app that has workouts for three times a week. It's body diverse, so you get to see all of us doing the exercises that we're asking you to do, which is really cool.
Virginia 
I'm downloading it immediately.
Thank you so much for doing this. This was great.
Keri 
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at BurntToastPodcast.com.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram and Threads at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Our video editor is Elizabeth Ayiku, who also runs the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders. Learn more and donate at melittlemefoundation.org.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your April Extra Butter episode!
This normally where we would say "Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark, " but today we're saying, "Welcome to Extra Butter."
Longtime listeners know that we used to call the Virginia and Corinne episodes "Indulgence Gospel" in honor of a troll comment. We still love the name and are having a hard time letting it go, but we wanted to make it easier to know what kind of episode you're listening to when you listen to Burnt Toast.
Burnt Toast has three membership tiers:
Burnt Toast free member 💛 (Free!)

Just Toast member 🍞 ($5/month or $50 annually)

Extra Butter member 🧈 ($10/month or $100 annually)

And Today we have an Extra Butter Episode! If you're listening to this episode, you're part of the premium tier, which means you're one of our favorite Burnt Toasties. You can get behind every paywall! Your support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast and ad and sponsor free space.
Today we are talking about:
⭐️ Fat fashion. Is it getting harder to shop?
⭐️ Virginia's bad boyfriend (J. Crew).
⭐️ How the oversized fashion trend leaves out fat people.
We're also answering listener questions about:
⭐️ Skinny jeans, yay or nay?
⭐️ Managing a wardrobe to fit weight fluctuations.
⭐️ How are we wearing layers during perimenopause?
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
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Join Extra Butter!
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Episode 239 Transcript
Corinne: 
Today we have a very exciting (for me) topic, which is we're going to talk about fat fashion, spring edition.
Virginia: 
Is it getting harder to shop?
Corinne: 
I mean, quick answer: yes.
Virginia: 
Absolutely. It's terrible out there. Is it the state of the world, is it retail, or is it both? We're going to get into how it's feeling like there are fewer plus-size options, and we're going to get into some of your practical questions.

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your March Just Toast episode!
Today we are talking about:
⭐️ The new, skinny American Girl dolls
⭐️ Does taking a GLP-1 make you a better parent?
We're also answering listener questions about:
⭐️ The diet culture voice in your head
⭐️ Colonoscopy prep and the feelings it brings up
⭐️ Virginia's review of the Heated Rivalry books
You need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
Sign up for just $5!
Join Just Toast!
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Episode 238 Transcript
Virginia
Today we are catching up on some things we are mad about in March.
Corinne
Some people have been annoying us.
Virginia
We have a list, and you may or may not be on the list. First up is ...

You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today is the second part of my conversation with Savala Nolan.
Savala is a writer, public speaker and professor at UC Berkeley. Her brand new book, Good Woman: A Reckoning is out now. 
Her first book, Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender and the Body, was shortlisted for the William Saroyan Prize and celebrated as a “standout collection” by the New York Times. Savala's writing has been featured in Vogue, Harper’s Magazine, the New York Times, NPR, TIME and more.
Today is the second part of my conversation with Savala. In part one, we talked about bodies, race and gender. Today in part two, we're getting into sex, divorce and classy and trashy Butters.
This conversation is for paid subscribers only, so go to patreon.com/virginiasolesmith to join us. Membership starts at just $5 per month. You're not going to want to miss this one.
One last thing! If you order Good Woman from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout.
Here's Savala.
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Episode 237 Transcript
Virginia 
All right, we've got to talk about men a little bit.
Savala  
Do we have to? No, I'm kidding. I love them.
Virginia  
I really questioned whether we did. You write really well about men in this book. You articulate a lot about a certain kind of man that is going to be very familiar to a lot of our listeners. You call him the "voting booth feminist." Define voting booth feminist and tell us how that particular type of man, perhaps without realizing it, contributes to this narrative about what a "good woman" should be.
Savala  
Well, the voting booth feminist is alive and well, Virginia. I was married to one.

You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with none other than the beloved, the brilliant, Lindy West.
Lindy is the author of four books, The New York Times bestselling memoir, Shrill, as well as the essay collections, The Witches Are Coming and Shit, Actually, and her brand new memoir Adult Braces, out now.
Lindy is a former contributing opinion writer for The New York Times. Her work has appeared in This American Life, The Guardian, Cosmopolitan, GQ, Vulture, Jezebel and many others. She is the co-host of the comedy podcast, Text Me Back!!! and the author of the newsletter Butt News. Lindy was a writer and executive producer on Shrill, the Hulu comedy adapted from her memoir, and she co-wrote and produced the independent feature film, Thin Skin. She lives on the Olympic Peninsula in rural Washington state.
Lindy joined me to chat about her brand new memoir, Adult Braces. We get into her relationship to fatness, having people comment rather relentlessly on her marriage, why more best friends should start podcasts and so much more—including a quesadilla she invents in real time while we recorded. You are going to love this one.
This conversation with Lindy is so juicy that we're breaking it up into two episodes! In Part 1 we’re talking about her brand new memoir, Adult Braces, as well as her eating disorder therapy, being a public fat person and having people comment on her body and her marriage.
In Part 2, we're getting into non-monogamy, the benefits of being in a throuple, podcasting and so much more!
If you're already a paid subscriber, you've got both parts of the episode right here, right now in your inbox!
Everyone else: Join Burnt Toast today to hear the whole thing! Membership starts at just $5 per month and also gets you commenting privileges.
One last thing! You will want to read Adult Braces after hearing this conversation. If you order it from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout.
Here's Lindy West.
If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!
Join Burnt Toast
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Virginia 
We are here to talk about your new memoir, Adult Braces. My producer Kim and I both read it. We loved it. Like, crying laughing, full body experience reading this book. 
Lindy
Thank you so much!
Virginia
Do you want to give us a brief summary of what the book is about?
Lindy  
The book is about a road trip that I took in 2021 from Seattle to Key West and back, which I decided to do when I was having a crisis in my life. I needed to get away from my house, and I needed to get away from my family and my responsibilities.
I had found out a couple years earlier that my husband had a secret girlfriend, which was sort of illegal in our relationship, sort of not. That was quite a topic of conversation for several years, and we eventually figured it out. But then I was exhausted from a year of COVID and three years of non-stop couples therapy. I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I left and I drove to Florida in a van that I rented. I slept in the van. I just wanted to be out in the world and be brave and alive.
The road trip stories are interspersed with chapters about my life before. A big message, at least for me, is that it's really easy to read my crisis as this monogamy/polyamory conversation, but when I think back on it, everything about my life was messed up before that. I had so many other problems, in my mental health, in the way that I managed my career, my life and my brain chemicals. I wanted to build a full picture of that, because I think the easy story is like, 'Oh, no good husband.' But it was a lot more complicated than that, and a lot of it stemmed from work that I had to do on myself, which is ultimately the only work that I can do. I can't do work on my husband.
Virginia 
Nope. A lot of us learned that the hard way.
Lindy  
Right! That was actually one of my problems. I was constantly waiting for my husband to transform into the person that I had imagined would be my husband, and that's not how people work.
Virginia 
It's annoying, but true. 
Lindy  
It's very annoying. The book is about all of those figurative journeys happening at once, and also my literal journey. 
Virginia 
It's spectacular. The van alone. I'm obsessed with the van. There's a mural on the outside of the van. It's incredible.
Lindy  
The van has a big, scary rabbit on one side and then a big, anxious sheep on the other side. The van was named BAAA, like the noise a sheep makes. I think I'm going to make some social media content out of this. I'm trying to be an influencer in order to promote this book. I want the van. I want that van. I want it in my possession.
Virginia
I was sad when you gave it back. 
Lindy
I know! Me too, and now the company has gone out of business. I tried to rent the van for my book tour and they don't exist anymore. Someone has that van. I think I'm going to do a social media campaign called "Help me find my van," so that I can buy it.
Virginia 
Burnt Toast listeners, if any of you have a van with a rabbit on one side and a sheep on the other, hit us up. Even if it's a different van with that art, I think Lindy would be interested.
Lindy
Yes. I will pay upwards of $1,000.
Virginia 
To get that van back. It was a sad moment. It was like the end of those movies with a person on a journey with an animal, and they say goodbye. It was like the volleyball in that Tom Hanks movie.
Lindy  
Oh, my God, yeah. I had to watch BAAA float away on the ocean. BAAA had really been there for me. BAAA is an old lady now. Maybe she doesn't exist anymore, because she already had 250,000 miles on her and then I drove her another 50,000.
Virginia
She was in her golden years. 
Lindy
She was in her golden years. But I think those Ford Transit vans are built to last, so I think someone has her. It turns out all the van companies are going out of business because I had a really hard time finding a van. I called three different companies that had all recently gone out of business, because #vanlife is not that popular anymore now that people have #donthavetowearamasklife.
Virginia 
They had a little Renaissance moment there.
Lindy  
I called this other company that was going out of business, and I was like, "Well, what are you doing with your fleet?" I know the all the terms now. I was like, "What's happening to your fleet? Can I buy one of your vans?" And he was like, "Yeah, they're $90,000." Sorry, excuse me?
Virginia 
It doesn't even have a rabbit on it, sir.
Lindy  
This van is blank. I think that if there's any hope for me getting a van, it's got to be old lady BAAA. If you're listening and you know where BAAA ended up, please call me.
Virginia 
I mean, I'm now picturing that BAAA probably has a new owner who also really loves her. There's going to be a complicated journey to restore BAAA to her rightful owner, which is you, but ...
Lindy  
Ok, now that you said that I don't want to take BAAA away from her new family.
Virginia 
Well, maybe it could be a joint custody situation, you know? Let's be open-minded to different family structures.
Lindy  
That's true. You're so right. God, that was very regressive of me.
Virginia 
But yes, I hope that you can be reunited.
Lindy
Thank you.
Virginia
Along with the story of BAAA, you talk about many vulnerable things in the book. One of them that I know our listeners will be really moved by is your exploration of having an eating disorder and starting treatment for that. It was just so relatable. Like when you wrote about reading through the list of nutritionists from your doctor, and only one doesn't mention weight loss. When you're looking for eating disorder treatment!
Lindy  
It's a snapshot of what most people are going to the nutritionist for: weight loss. That's what everyone's looking for, in every direction. So, I get it, but it was very frustrating. Luckily, the one lady that wasn't weight loss focused is the best person I've ever met, so it all worked out.
Virginia 
What was it like working with someone who was like, "Actually, you don't need to lose weight. You need to eat more food?"
Lindy  
It's been amazing. I mean, it's frustrating, because you still have the diet culture voice inside your head, even if you've done as much healing as you thought was humanly possible. I realized once I started working with her that some tiny part of my brain had been like, Once you see the nutritionist, maybe you will lose weight. Not that that was my goal. But there's always this little, dee de dee dee, then your life will be perfect. It's really hard to deprogram that.
Grace, my now therapist, just kept being like, "Your job is to eat whatever you want all the time." And I'd be like, "Yeah, but what if I want vegetables?" She was like, "That's fine, but you're not allowed to not eat candy." And I was like, "But don't you want to give me some kind of guideline for how to be perfect?" And she was like, "No, that's disordered."
Virginia 
That’s the opposite of what we're doing now.
Lindy  
I find myself still searching for someone to tell me how to live so that I don't have to figure it out. Unfortunately, the answer is listening to your body and learning how to know yourself. So I'm doing that instead. 
Virginia
She said joyfully.
Lindy
Again, I'm not trying to lose weight. I'm not on a weight loss journey. I think after so many years of living untreated in diet culture, I don't have any kind of a natural relationship with food. And it is a lot of work to figure out how to listen to my body. So even from a non-diet culture perspective, I was hoping that some part of this therapy was going to be her handing me a worksheet. Even if the worksheet said "One piece of cake for breakfast, one piece of cake for lunch, one piece of cake for dinner." I just was like, Making the choices is triggering to me.
Virginia 
The decision fatigue! It's a lot of work, every meal. I have to, again, make the decision to eat and what to eat and how. All day long we do this??
Lindy  
I have to do the grocery shopping?
Also, when you've been shamed your whole life for those choices, making the choices is stressful. Now I feel like, either direction, I'm doing something bad. I'm either doing diet culture by choosing to have a salad, even if I want one. I still am like, Am I betraying myself? Or the opposite, if I choose to eat something sort of indulgent or whatever, then I'm doing fat person. Which is fine.
Virginia 
You have to negotiate it in both directions.
Lindy  
Yes! Except then I'm like, Well, but if I'm eating something decadent, is that just reactionary? Because I know I'm not supposed to do diet culture. So then do I even want this ice cream? I'm still, to this day, fairly lost. I'm way better than I was five years ago, and I've definitely figured some stuff out, which is just having routines. It's like, I have oatmeal. Done.
Virginia 
One less decision.
Lindy  
In the morning, I have oatmeal, and then I have certain staple things I keep around. I'm so angry that my head has been messed with to this degree. You know what I mean? 
Virginia 
Yes. And you were trying to navigate recovery as a public fat person, which brings a whole other layer. I have had a tiny fraction of what you experience, and it's bananas. The amount the world feels like they can engage with our bodies and have opinions and theories and comments and all of that. You doing it, especially when you first started doing it, was such a gift to the rest of us. You were really on the front lines. 
Lindy  
It's really hard, and that's the thing that I write about in the book. Obviously, the mean people are the worst. But there's a way that my fans feel an ownership over me that is a little bit ... not claustrophobic - I appreciate it, it's very loving - but also, I feel surveilled. I'm definitely being watched. People notice if my body changes, and that is confining in a certain way. It's hard to navigate, because you don't get to just have a private relationship with your body, which, to be fair, I voluntarily gave up because I said "I'm going to present my body for public conversation," basically.
Virginia 
I don't know that we ever have informed consent around that though. I don't think you could have known when you decided to publish that first essay in The Stranger what this would be like. You know what I mean? I don't think you could wrap your head around where it would have gone.
Lindy  
I can't blame the fans, especially since so much of this stuff was grassroots on the Internet. I used to be a fat girl lurking on Tumblr, taking from other fat people who came before me. I don't want to build a wall around myself and say, "No, you can't look at me, and you can't feel anything about my body, and you can't have any opinions or connection to it," because I did the same thing. But navigating of it is hard, and complicated.
Virginia 
It is complicated. I can understand, especially when navigating your own recovery and wanting to make choices for yourself, but feeling like people will feel let down. It's complicated. We all do it with other public figures all the time. 
Lindy  
Oh, I don't like it when famous fat people lose weight. I don't trust it at all, but I don't say anything about it. You know what I mean?
Virginia 
At least, not super publicly. Maybe in my own head.
Lindy  
Just to the group chat. "Oh, ozempic, got another one?" I'll send that text. I do have this fear that if eating disorder treatment and recovery did cause me to lose weight, because I changed my relationship with food in such a way that my body changes—which I don't know if that would happen or not, there's no way to know, probably not—but if it did happen, it's so scary to think that I could be perceived as having betrayed people, or that I'm one of those people that I look at and send to the group chat and say, "Oh boy." Which is why I shouldn't do that.
Virginia 
Sure, fine. Now that you're putting it that way, I suppose.
Lindy  
It depends on the person. Look, just don't take me on your weight loss journey. I don't need to hear about your journey.
Virginia 
That's really the key to me. People do what they do with their bodies, and that's fine, but I really appreciate it when a celebrity says nothing. If you start justifying and explaining it, odds are that you're causing harm to somebody.
Lindy
It's not that hard to not say anything.
Virginia 
Yeah, just have your body. That's fine. You do you.
Related to people dissecting your body online, another experience we unfortunately share is having our personal lives written about and commented on online, particularly in regards to marriage. In my case, my divorce. It made the Daily Mail, which is a real point of pride for me.
You write really candidly about your marriage with Aham in this book and there are many difficult parts. Did it feel like you were taking some control back over the narrative to write about it? How do you feel about how people might react once they read what you've written?
Lindy  
I wanted to take control of the narrative. People react so intensely to non-monogamy. It's very scary to a lot of people, and I get it. You're sort of promised an equation for happiness, which is one person loving you obsessively for the rest of your life until you die. Just the idea that some people might choose a slight variation on that —it's threatening.
And it's a slight variation. I am married to two people. It's just one extra person! There's just one extra. It's not really that different. If you think about it, being single is only one person away from being two people. Just one less.
Virginia 
Right. Every single person is basically married. And every married person is basically in a throuple.
Lindy  
Is it that weird? People find it very weird. There was so much backlash, particularly directed at Aham, but also at me. My body was a big factor in it. The way that people perceive our relationship is never disconnected from the way people look at my body. 
So when people started to clock that we had a third person in our marriage—my partner, Roya. I shouldn't just talk about her like she's a mysterious, shadowy figure—so much of the response was, "Oh, we see what's going on here. You're fat and ugly and gross, so he doesn't like you. He needed a thin woman so that he can actually be happy."
Virginia 
He had to trade up in some way. 
Lindy  
He had to upgrade, as any man would, because, "Unfortunately, you're disgusting, and that's why we're here to defend you against this evil man."
Virginia 
Yes, defend you —because this is from people who were your fans. That was what blew my mind [when you first came out]. I was like, But wait, you're a pro-Lindy person drawing these conclusions about her life. That doesn't make sense.
Lindy
Why are you being so mean to me?
Virginia 
You're so mad on her behalf. But she didn't ask you to do that.
Lindy  
Right? And you know who's not saying anything mean to me? Aham. You guys are being way meaner. 
So, I don't know. It just felt like I wanted to get some definitive version down on paper, even though people are still going to do the same thing: take it and run with it, fill in the blanks. Everyone became a body language expert. People are obsessed with being the genius who read between the lines and could figure out what wasn't being said. We're in the age of conspiracy. I get it. But you can't actually just look at a picture of some people on the Internet and figure out what isn't being said. 
I couldn't even capture it in the book, because part of it is me and Aham sitting at the dining room table doing couples therapy over Zoom every week for three years. How do I put that in the book? It's so much work. 
People keep asking me, "Why are you so hard on yourself in this book?" Some people think I'm too easy on Aham. People keep telling me what my feelings are, and that I'm this naive person who's been duped. Or that I don't really understand, I can't really see, what's been done to me. 
I wanted to get my feelings down in hard copy. I can't excavate Aham’s feelings in my book. When I tried to, I cut it because it sounded like I'm begging the audience to co-sign that it was ok for me to stay, that I'm allowed to stay in my marriage. It feels like rationalization, and I don't want to do that. 
Virginia
You don't actually need our permission. 
Lindy
I don't actually need anyone's permission. But what I can do, and what I have the authority and right to do, is put down in excruciating detail my process and the things that I came to realize about myself, and the ways that I had been a part of the toxicity in our marriage. The ways that I had been in denial, and the ways that I had not been taking care of myself, emotionally, psychologically and in a million different ways. 
That's what I have to work with. I'm also, in my personal life, a passive, shy person. I have this childhood wound of being talked over and not given the authority to speak on my own experiences, and not feeling capable of asserting myself. That's a lot of what this book is. I'm hard on myself because I found it fascinating. I found it so illuminating to realize all of these ways that my brain had been warped, and I thought it was rational. How interesting to come to a realization that these things that you thought were a given actually, maybe you were wrong. People read it as me being really cruel to myself, but to me, it felt really healing to excavate all those things and figure them out. I hope it's not a grind to read.
Virginia 
No, it's definitely not. I found it more healing than you being hard on yourself.
I mean, there are moments—and I think this is, you know, this is me being a fan for a moment—like we love you Lindy. We've been rooting for you for a long time. There are moments where I would think, Oh no, Lindy. I want to protect you. I don't like this. But then you would have this breathtaking insight about yourself, and I'd be like, Oh, shit. Ok, well, that makes sense.
That was my experience of reading the book. These moments of feeling defensive or protective, and then being like, Oh, mind blown. 
Lindy  
Thank you. I was just going to say, I do keep having this little feeling of, if you read the book and you're like, I can't relate to this because she's so hard on herself, well ... it sounds like you've never been fat.
Virginia 
Or in therapy of any kind.
Lindy  
Congratulations on never having low self-esteem?
Virginia 
Must be neat to always be so sure. Are you maybe a narcissist?
A lot of what I saw in that narrative of "Lindy's the victim. He's trading up for the thin woman." is that this is so many fat women's core fear, right? So this was people projecting their own stuff of,  'This is what's going to happen to me. My husband's going to leave me for a younger, thinner woman.'
Lindy  
And that's rational, of course. That's what they do! I get it, because that was my fear. That's why I didn't want to do it. I was like, I know you're just waiting to upgrade. But in retrospect, it doesn't make sense. If what you were waiting to do was upgrade, why would you not just leave me?
People talk to me as though, I'm still, to this day, being victimized. But to me, it was so healing to be brave and step through this veil into this other relationship structure and discover that Aham does not love me less. He didn't leave. I don't have less of him. He was telling the truth about, at least, how he feels about me.
I was always so paranoid about that, and I always had so much doubt about it. People read it, and I get it, of course. Most people feel like they are barely holding their husband back from running off and being evil.
Virginia 
But if that's the case, there is divorce. I just want to say to everyone in that box, there is this other path. You don't have to stay with that guy.
Lindy  
If you're worried about that, please get a divorce. You will love it. 
Virginia 
It's so great. It's real rad. 
Lindy  
Look, I don't trust men either. I get it. I have the same wounds and the same anxieties. That's why I resisted so hard for so long. But I also didn't want to not be with Aham, because we have a really, really special relationship and I couldn't imagine ... I mean, I did eventually imagine, actually, there's a chapter cut from the book called "If I'd Left" about all the stuff I would have done. 
Virginia
Ooh, I am intrigued. 
Lindy
I'll tell you about it, but mostly it was a list of the different animals that I would acquire. 
A big part of this whole journey—I've said "journey" so many times—Aham tried to do it right. He brought it up day one. He said, "This is non-negotiable if we're going to be together." I said, "Ok, sure." He tried to talk to me about it over the years. I avoided the conversation. I would throw a fit and cry and hyperventilate. I could not handle it. 
When I found out that he was seeing someone else, he said, "I think we want different things, and if that's the case, we need to not be together."
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Part 2 is for paid subscribers only.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
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Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!