Leading Saints Podcast

This is a follow-up conversation. Listen to the first episode here.

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission.

Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. He recently published the book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family.



Links

Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them

Part 1: What Leaders Can Learn From the People Who Are Leaving the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong

What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny

The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong

TornByJeffStrong.com

Instagram: @tornbyjeffstrong

Facebook

Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community

Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community

Highlights

In this follow-up episode, Kurt and Jeff discuss the complexities of faith transitions. The conversation focuses on the four stages individuals typically experience when questioning their faith and the cultural imbalances that can affect their sense of belonging.

00:02:18 – Understanding Faith Transitions

00:05:23 – Four Stages of Faith Transition

00:09:01 – Intensive Seeking Phase

00:10:19 – Relational Breaking Stage

00:12:47 – Importance of Conversations in Faith Transitions

00:13:35 – Embracing Different Perspectives

00:18:00 – Role Play: Navigating Faith Questions

00:20:10 – The Need for New Thinking

00:24:29 – Cultural Imbalances in the Church

00:30:34 – Hard and Unyielding Soil

00:39:51 – Shallow Stony Soil: Growth vs. Sanctuary

00:44:08 – Balancing Sanctuary and Transformation

Key Insights

Four Stages of Faith Transition: Individuals often go through integrity disruption, permission to question, intensive seeking, and relational breaking. Each stage reflects a different aspect of their journey as they navigate doubts and seek understanding.

Cultural Imbalances: Jeff identifies four cultural imbalances in the Latter-day Saint community, including hard and unyielding soil versus acceptance, and sanctuary versus transformation. These imbalances can alienate individuals who feel their beliefs or experiences do not align with community expectations.

Importance of Acceptance: Acknowledging and validating the experiences of those questioning their faith is crucial. Leaders should create an environment where individuals feel safe to express doubts without fear of judgment or ostracism.

Nourishment vs. Protection: The conversation emphasizes the need for a balance between the protective aspects of church culture and the nourishing elements that foster growth and transformation. Leaders should focus on providing spiritual nourishment to help individuals thrive.

Role of Conversations: Open and supportive conversations can significantly impact whether individuals choose to stay within the faith community. Leaders should approach discussions with empathy and understanding, recognizing the importance of relational dynamics.

Leadership Applications

Foster Open Dialogue: Encourage open discussions about faith and doubts within congregations. Create safe spaces where members can share their experiences without fear of being labeled or judged.

Balance Protection and Nourishment: Strive to create a culture that values both adherence to standards and the acceptance of diverse beliefs and experiences. This balance can help retain members who may feel marginalized.

Supportive Leadership: Leaders should model vulnerability by sharing their own faith journeys and struggles. This approach can help normalize the questioning process and foster a sense of community and belonging among members.

The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes.

Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Every first Friday of the month, Kurt Francom hosts Zion Lab Live, where we review the latest happenings and conversations taking place in Zion Lab and across our online community. Kurt highlights key posts, trending discussions, and new podcast episodes—offering insights, context, and opportunities for deeper engagement.

Jump into Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/

In this episode, Kurt and livestream guests discuss the challenges faced by young married adults in the Church, particularly their faith and social dynamics. The conversation also touches on Mother’s Day experiences and the importance of intellectual engagement in church settings.

Links & Resources

📱 Download the Leading Saints app: Search “Leading Saints” in the Apple App Store or Google Play

💬 Join Zion Lab and become a Zion Builder at https://app.leadingsaints.org

Watch this episode or read the transcript in Zion Lab

📩 DM Kurt directly inside Zion Lab

Key Insights

Transition Challenges: Young married adults often experience a shift from a vibrant social life in young single adult (YSA) groups to a more insular lifestyle focused on their immediate families, which can lead to feelings of isolation and apathy towards church involvement.

Faith Engagement: Many young couples consciously or subconsciously reassess their commitment to church practices after marriage, with some drifting away from traditional attendance and callings.

Social Media Impact: The prevalence of scrolling culture and streaming services can diminish the desire for social interaction, making it easier for couples to retreat into their homes rather than engage with their church community.

Mother’s Day Observations: The episode highlights mixed feelings about Mother’s Day in church settings, with some women feeling excluded or uncomfortable due to personal circumstances, such as loss or infertility. There is a call for more inclusive recognition of all women, not just mothers.

Intellectual Engagement: The discussion emphasizes the need for church lessons to be intellectually stimulating while also fostering connection and spiritual growth. There is a tension between providing deep doctrinal insights and ensuring that lessons remain accessible and engaging for all members.

Leadership Applications

Create Inclusive Activities: Leaders can foster community among young married couples by organizing targeted activities that encourage social interaction and connection, helping to mitigate feelings of isolation.

Facilitate Open Discussions: Encouraging open conversations about faith and personal experiences can help young couples navigate their spiritual journeys together, reinforcing their commitment to church involvement.

Reevaluate Traditions: Leaders should consider the diverse experiences of women in their congregations during events like Mother’s Day, ensuring that all members feel valued and included, regardless of their personal circumstances.

00:01:11 – What is a Zion Builder?

00:02:46 – The Role of AI Clerk in Zion Lab

00:03:39 – Discussion on Young Married Adults

00:07:37 – Insights from a Bishop on Young Married Activities

00:11:39 – Engaging Young Families in Church Activities

00:15:12 – The Transition from Single to Married Life

00:18:14 – Challenges of Church Attendance for Young Couples

00:21:05 – Mother’s Day Observations and Experiences

00:27:01 – Debate on the Importance of Mother’s Day in Church

00:30:33 – The Role of Heavenly Mother in Discussions

00:34:48 – Intellectual Engagement in Church Lessons

00:39:15 – Balancing Intellectual and Spiritual Needs

00:46:08 – Community Sharing vs. Traditional Teaching

“Zion Lab Live” streams every first Friday of the month in the Zion Lab app.

The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes.

Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Orlando R. Kelm is a retired professor from the University of Texas at Austin. He served in the Department of Spanish and Portuguese and the McCombs School of Business for over 37 years, teaching courses in Portuguese and Spanish language and linguistics. His research and publications focused on the cultural aspects of cross-cultural communication and the creative use of technology in language learning.

Orlando was born in Calgary, Alberta, raised in Taylorsville, Utah, and educated at Brigham Young University and the University of California at Berkeley. He served in the São Paulo Norte Brazil mission, and his three favorite hobbies are studying foreign languages, acoustic guitar, and astrophotography and nature photography. Orlando recently published the book It’s a Patriarchal Blessing!.



Links

It’s a Patriarchal Blessing

Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (Microsoft Word format)

Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (PDF format)

Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community

Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community

Highlights

Orlando discusses his experiences as a patriarch and the significance of patriarchal blessings. He emphasizes the importance of viewing these blessings as affirmations of identity and divine potential rather than as mere checklists or warnings.

00:02:28 – Orlando’s Calling as a Patriarch

00:03:52 – Challenges of Starting as a Patriarch

00:04:48 – Training and Preparation for Patriarchs

00:05:41 – The Pressure of Giving a Blessing

00:06:29 – Communicating First-Time Blessings

00:07:06 – Orlando’s Role as the Only Patriarch

00:07:55 – Impact on Gospel Study and Preparation

00:08:34 – Revelation and Inspiration in Preparation

00:09:40 – The Importance of Compassion

00:10:37 – Note-Taking for Blessings

00:12:00 – Reviewing and Editing Blessings

00:13:27 – The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings

00:14:35 – Preparing Candidates for Blessings

00:17:30 – Helping Candidates Feel Comfortable

00:19:06 – The Role of Patriarchs in the Church

00:20:10 – The Blessing Aspect of Patriarchal Blessings

00:21:09 – Avoiding a Checklist Mentality

00:22:32 – The Role of Personal Agency

00:23:36 – Orlando’s List of Recommended Talks

00:24:45 – Reducing Anxiety for Candidates

00:26:07 – The Experience of Giving Blessings

00:27:30 – The Importance of Seeing Potential

00:28:59 – Understanding Lineage in Blessings

00:30:33 – The Significance of Covenant and Gathering

00:31:47 – Contributions of Different Tribes

00:33:44 – The Role of Personal Revelation

00:35:58 – Flexibility in Interpreting Blessings

00:37:09 – The Lifelong Relevance of Blessings

Key Insights

The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings: These blessings should be viewed fundamentally as a positive source of love and divine identity. Orlando emphasizes that they are not patriarchal warnings, admonitions, or “chewing outs,” but rather tools to help individuals understand their divine worth.

Preparation as a Patriarch: The process involves intense, ongoing spiritual preparation. Orlando explains that he often feels like a “faucet that cannot be turned off” in the days leading up to a blessing, as he studies scriptures and topics prompted by the Holy Ghost to prepare his mind to receive impressions.

Mortal Delivery of Revelation: Patriarchs receive inspiration, but they must articulate it using their own mortal capacity, vocabulary, and understanding. Consequently, a patriarchal blessing is a collaboration between the Spirit and the patriarch’s mortal expression.

The Fallacy of the “Checklist”: Recipients should avoid viewing their blessings as a list of required events (e.g., marriage, missions, children) to be checked off. Instead, they should see the blessing as a resource to be applied to all of life’s decisions, challenges, and experiences.

Understanding Lineage: The declaration of lineage is not a DNA test but an invitation to participate in the Abrahamic covenant and the gathering of Israel. Each tribe’s unique description provides a different “skill set” for how an individual can contribute to the Lord’s work.

Leadership Applications

Alleviate Anxiety: Leaders can help reduce the nervousness people feel about visiting a patriarch by fostering opportunities for the patriarch to interact with ward members (e.g., firesides, sacrament meetings, or activities) beforehand, making him a familiar figure rather than a stranger.

Foster a Broad Interpretation: Bishops and leaders should encourage members to interpret their patriarchal blessings with flexibility. When members feel confused by their blessing, leaders can help them understand that the meanings may evolve and deepen as they face different stages and challenges in life.

The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes.

Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Cole Zesiger is a breakup and relationship coach, author, and content creator who specializes in helping people navigate heartbreak, healing, and healthy relationships. After experiencing a divorce at 23 and another difficult breakup soon after, Cole began openly sharing his journey online, eventually growing an audience of more than 750,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and other platforms.

Through his coaching programs, online community, and content, he has helped over 2,000 people work through breakups, strengthen their self-worth, improve communication, and build healthier relationships. His practical approach blends psychology, attachment theory, faith, and real-world experience to help people either reconcile in healthier ways or move forward with peace and confidence.

Cole grew up in Utah and served as a missionary in the Manila Philippines Mission. He married his wife, Jocelyn, in 2023, and together they are raising their daughter, Daisy. When he’s not coaching or creating content, Cole enjoys playing guitar, dirt biking, wildlife photography, and exploring the mountains. His debut book, Ex’s and No’s: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear, offers a roadmap for rebuilding confidence, healing attachment wounds, and creating lasting love.



Links

Ex’s and No’s: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear

CoachColeZesiger.com

Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community

Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community

Highlights

Cole Zesiger discusses navigating early divorce and breakups within the Young Single Adult (YSA) community of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conversation focuses on dismantling the spiritual stigma surrounding failed marriages and provides actionable methods for processing relationship trauma.

00:02:06 – Cole’s Journey Through Divorce

00:05:08 – The Reality of Early Marriage Challenges

00:07:56 – Understanding Attachment Styles

00:10:41 – The Impact of Divorce on Self-Perception

00:12:27 – The Aftermath of Divorce

00:14:06 – Reflecting on Past Relationships

00:17:14 – The Importance of Community Support

00:20:27 – Addressing the YSA Experience with Divorce

00:22:09 – Normalizing Divorce in Church Culture

00:24:34 – Understanding God’s Role in Relationships

00:27:10 – Creating Depth in Relationships

00:30:02 – The Importance of Service in Marriage

00:32:11 – Supporting Those Experiencing Divorce

00:35:37 – Best Practices for YSA Leaders

00:39:30 – Building a Present Worth Living In

Key Insights

The Perfection Stigma: Many young Latter-day Saints internalize a strict cultural path (e.g., mission, temple marriage) as a guarantee of success, leading to intense shame, identity crises, and a sense of absolute personal failure if a marriage ends in divorce.

Anxious Attachment and Relationship Mechanics: Childhood and mission environments can inadvertently cultivate anxious attachment styles, causing individuals to compulsively try to “will a relationship into existence” or over-sacrifice personal needs rather than assessing core value compatibility.

God’s Will and Adversity: Divine promptings to marry do not mean God guaranteed a problem-free relationship; rather, adversity and divorce can be part of a broader spiritual landscape designed to build critical emotional skills and resilience.

The Physiology of Heartbreak: Neurologically, overcoming a major breakup mimics chemical detox patterns seen in severe substance withdrawals, highlighting that the profound grief experienced by individuals is an intense physiological reality that requires intentional time to navigate.

Active Relationship Maintenance: Sustainable long-term intimacy requires entering the “deep end” of a relationship by prioritizing consistent service actions strictly to maintain one’s own love for their partner rather than doing so out of a codependent need for constant reciprocation.

Leadership Applications

Initiate Purposeful Social Inclusion: Leaders should deliberately look out for divorced or grieving ward members, actively connecting them to peer networks and social activities to replace isolation with a forward-looking sense of belonging.

Shift the Spiritual Narrative: When counseling individuals facing separation, leaders can help reframe their perspective from viewing divorce as an identity-defining failure or sin to treating it as a difficult life trial that offers space for grace and personal growth.

The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes.

Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Former mission president Bart Warner and his former missionary James Logan explore the dynamics, patterns, and spiritual impact of mentorship. Drawing from their shared history in the Texas Dallas Mission and their current professional collaboration, they discuss how deliberate interpersonal guidance fosters long-term progression. They focus on overcoming personal stagnation by cultivating effective mentor-mentee relationships to strengthen individuals and build Zion.



Links

Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community

Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community

Highlights

Bart and James discuss the importance of building relationships, the role of agency, and the impact of mentorship on personal and professional growth.

00:03:26 – Relationship Between Bart and James

00:04:04 – Bart’s Mission Presidency Experience

00:05:07 – Mentorship Principles

00:07:58 – Bart’s Influential Mentors

00:09:14 – James’ Background Before the Mission

00:10:11 – James’ Decision to Serve a Mission

00:12:11 – First Impressions of Bart as Mission President

00:13:01 – James’ Initial Struggles on the Mission

00:15:14 – The Importance of Following Mission Rules

00:17:14 – Spiritual Experiences on the Mission

00:19:46 – Agency and Mentorship

00:20:29 – The Role of Agency in Life

00:24:39 – Seeking Help from Others

00:25:57 – The Impact of Mentorship

00:28:07 – James’ Career Journey Post-Mission

00:30:06 – Bart’s Mentorship Approach

00:32:38 – The Evolution of Their Mentorship Relationship

00:35:29 – Learning from Mistakes in Business

00:37:00 – The Importance of Agency in Mentorship

00:39:03 – Lessons from Personal Experiences

Key Insights

The Danger of Spiritual Drifting: Referring to Napoleon Hill’s Outwitting the Devil, Bart explains that a primary tool of adversary-led stagnation is convincing individuals that “drifting” or coasting comfortably through life without progressing is acceptable.

A Great Mentee Attracts a Great Mentor: Finding guidance begins with the posture of the learner. True mentorship thrives when a mentee actively desires progression, remains coachable, and seeks out wisdom during times of critical personal or spiritual need.

Strict Obedience Unlocks Spiritual Momentum: Reflecting on James’s early mission struggles, the guests highlight how committing to precise alignment with established standards (like the missionary handbook) for even one week can completely shift an individual’s momentum and open doors to transformative experiences.

The Dual Impact of Mentorship: True guidance is a mutual blessing. While the mentee receives navigation and structural metrics to succeed, the mentor is simultaneously sharped, humbled, and revitalized by watching the next generation progress.

Leadership Applications

Intervene with High-Expectation Challenges: When a ward member or missionary wants to give up, leaders can follow Bart’s example by offering a short-term, clear challenge rooted in exact covenant precision rather than immediately lowering expectations.

Intentionally Bridge Generation Gaps: Leaders can structurally pair experienced members with younger adults in callings, ward council configurations, or ministering assignments to ensure that lived spiritual and temporal wisdom is actively transferred.

The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org.

Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes.

Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.