No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

Can I just say something? No, really! What are the boundaries of free speech these days? The conversation continues between Lee, Savannah, and Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech. Whether you're a free speech absolutist, a skeptic, or somewhere in between, this episode will challenge your assumptions about the topic. Stay tuned for Lee and Savannah's debrief at the end of the episode!

And remember, if you want to keep engaging with the conversation in person, you're invited to The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit, Oct. 2-3, 2026.

Things we mentioned in this episode:

The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026

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There is a fear that keeps most of us from looking too hard at where we come from: that we will turn over the wrong rock and find something we cannot carry. In the South, a holler is the tangled place on the riverbank you are told not to go. It is also a primal yell, and, as it happens, the sound Marines make.

Danielle Chapman is a poet, a lecturer at Yale, and the author of the memoir ⁠Holler: A Poet Among Patriots⁠. She was raised largely by her grandfather, a four-star general and former Commandant of the Marine Corps, after her father drowned off the coast of Okinawa when she was three. She spent twelve years turning what began as a political critique of her past into something considerably more uncomfortable—a true telling that treats all involved as complex human beings.

Key Ideas

A Single Story Is Too Reductive The moment you decide someone's worst act is the whole truth about them, you've stopped being able to see anything else that's true.

Be Curious Before You Judge Asking one more question is harder and more honest than settling for a verdict.

Understanding Isn't the Same as Excusing Making sense of why someone did wrong doesn't require letting them off the hook for it.

Facts Complicate Ideology The more you actually learn about a person or a history, the harder it gets to hold a tidy, one-sided verdict on either.

Silence Is Inherited Too What a family doesn't say about its grief and its guilt gets passed down as surely as what it does say.

Darkness Doesn't Get the Last Word Grace and atrocity can occupy the same family history without one canceling out the other.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Danielle Chapman⁠

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No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠
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This is our unabridged interview with Annie Jacobsen.

Wouldn't you rather not know how the world ends?

Nine nations hold nuclear weapons, and every one of them is watched, counted, and deterred. A biological weapon needs no nation, no missile, and no submarine. The delivery system is a pair of lungs, and the barrier to entry is a working knowledge of biology and a computer. That asymmetry is why the journalist who wrote the definitive account of how the world ends in seventy-two minutes has spent the last two years on something that frightens her more.

Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and New York Times bestselling author who has spent more than fifteen years reporting on classified military and intelligence programs, reconstructing worst-case scenarios from the testimony of the people who built them. Her new book,⁠ Biological War: A Scenario⁠, follows⁠ Nuclear War: A Scenario⁠. She calls us to courage by reminding us that you cannot fix what you cannot face.

Key Ideas

Six Minutes to Decide What the nuclear chain of command actually looks like once a missile is airborne, and why the clock is the least of the problems.

The Delivery System Is a Pair of Lungs Why a biological weapon needs no missile, no submarine, and almost no barrier to entry, and why that changes everything about who has to worry.

What the Pandemic Actually Cost Us Jacobsen's argument that the most lasting damage of COVID was never counted in cases, and that we are still paying it.

The Pope's Quiet Backchannel A story she learned at the Vatican about how the world once stepped back from the brink, and why almost no one was allowed to know.

Old Men in Their Nineties What decades of interviewing soldiers near the end of their lives taught her about how a human being changes.

Solution, Solution, Solution Her answer to the reader who finishes the book, decides the worst case is inevitable, and gives up.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie Jacobsen⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠
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Most people who share misinformation already suspect it is false.

This is a short preview of Lee's conversation with philosopher Christian B. Miller, from Books You Should Know, our quarterly series on NSE+. His new book, The Honesty Crisis, skips the easy target of lying public figures to ask a harder question: what kind of people do we become when deception gets cheap, convenient, and almost impossible to catch?

The full conversation is available now on NSE+, along with ad-free episodes, bonus content, and exclusive series.

Giveaway! Every NSE+ member is entered to win one of five copies of Christian's book, plus one of five signed copies of Lee's book Scandalous Witness. Every member is eligible, whether you joined three years ago or you join tonight. Entries close August 19th.

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Nikki Minaj thanked Elon Musk for saving free speech, so naturally, Lee and Savannah had to phone a friend to learn more about what is going on. Jacob Mchangama, Founder and Executive Director of The Future of Free Speech sat down with The Subtext to discuss everything from social media and censorship to hate speech, political polarization, and the First Amendment. They examine the real costs of protecting speech we disagree with and why history suggests those costs may still be worth paying.

Want to keep learning more? Well, you're in luck because Jacob's organization is hosting a summit in Nashville, TN this fall: The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026.

Things we mentioned in this episode:

Letters from a Stoic by Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Europe Since Napoleon by David Thomson

The Agency on Paramount+

Meditations by Marcus Aurelius

Enchiridion by Gil Epictetus

The Courage to be Disliked by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga

M*A*S*H* on Hulu

The Future of Free Speech - Global Free Speech Summit Oct. 2-3, 2026

Follow Jacob! Facebook | X | Instagram

Follow The Future of Free Speech! Facebook | X | Instagram

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com
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