Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Dcn. Harrison Garlick hosts a full house to discuss the short, strange, forgotten dialogue of Plato's Ion, subtitled "On the Iliad."
10 Question Written Guide on Plato's Ion
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Plato’s Ion opens with a victorious rhapsode who claims to speak more beautifully about Homer than any other human being. Socrates grants the premise that a true rhapsode must not merely recite but interpret the poet’s thought to his hearers—and then tests whether that excellence is a techne, a teachable art that should apply across all poets who treat the same subjects.
Ion fails the test. He is “asleep” except when Homer is mentioned. Socrates therefore offers another account: poets and rhapsodes work not by craft but by divine mania. The Muse is a lodestone, and poet, reciter, and audience form a chain of possession. Ion recognizes himself at once. On stage he is outside himself, and he can move twenty thousand hearers to tears and terror (with a subtle nod in the dialogue about the desire to make money...).
The dialogue then presses the distinction between speaking beautifully and speaking correctly. On charioteering, medicine, and the other arts present in Homer, the expert—not the rhapsode—speaks rightly. Unwilling to admit he has no art at all, Ion seizes the last remaining claim and declares himself the best general. The identification is absurd, and the conversation nearly collapses. Socrates leaves him a choice: to be called unjust, or divine. Ion takes the latter. Skill and inspiration remain unreconciled. What the short work has done is place poetry, possession, and the education of the city on the table—and prepare the larger judgment of the poets that the Republic will make.
Chapters
00:00 - Welcome to Ascend and overview of the episode's purpose
01:05 - Introducing Ion and the returning and first-time guests
02:29 - Erik Rostad explains Book of Titans and his lifelong reading project
06:28 - First reactions to Ion and its perplexing character
07:11 - Preliminary framing: subtitle, translation, and why the dialogue matters
10:10 - Ion's claim to be the finest speaker on Homer
11:44 - What techne means in this dialogue
20:00 - Does Ion really claim knowledge, or only beautiful performance?
23:50 - Ion's claim that no one else speaks more finely on Homer
28:37 - The question of poetry as a better educator than philosophy
31:03 - Ion admits he dozes off when other poets are discussed
38:45 - The magnet metaphor and the chain of divine influence
44:32 - Is divine inspiration irrational, or can it be a real source of truth?
55:31 - A third sense of possession: skill, demonization, and being subsumed into beauty
60:15 - Ion says he watches the crowd and adjusts for money and effect
62:49 - Does Ion have a real art, or is he just managing audience response?
70:29 - The charioteer, the physician, and whether Socrates is being fair
72:26 - Does philosophy itself become a narrow specialty in the same way?
76:03 - Why actors may be excellent performers but poor explainers of their craft
78:10 - Socrates as a guide toward self-recognition of Ion's actual techne
87:25 - Plato as storyteller and the philosopher's need for a better story
90:20 - Storytelling, parables, and the pedagogical power of narrative
92:37 - Plato's self-reflection on his own art and craft
94:36 - The unresolved tension between inspiration and skill
99:44 - Closing thanks
Keywords
Plato’s Ion, On the Iliad, Ion of Ephesus, rhapsode, Homer, Iliad, Odyssey, technē, techne, divine inspiration, mania, theia moira, magnet metaphor, lodestone, Muse, speaking beautifully, speaking correctly, kalos, orthos, Socratic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, aporetic dialogue, poetry versus philosophy, education of the city, Republic Book 10, poets as imitators, Allan Bloom, Thomas Pangle, Roots of Political Philosophy, Debra Nails, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Thomas Lackey, Jack Drury, Erik Rostad, Book of Titans, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, rhapsodic contest, Asclepieia, Epidaurus, generalship, polymathy, Plato as dramatist.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Larson, Dr. Grabowski, and Mr. Thomas Lackey discuss the short, strange, and forgotten dialogue of HIppias Minor or "On the Lie."
8 Questions on Hippias Minor Study Guide
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Plato’s Hippias Minor is a short, strange dialogue with a traditional subtitle that cuts straight to the point: “On the Lie.” After the boastful sophist Hippias finishes a public speech ranking Achilles the best and Odysseus the most polytropos—the man of twists and turns—Socrates is drawn into a conversation that begins with Homer and ends in one of the deepest aporias of the early dialogues.
What starts as a dispute over who is the better man, the straightforward Achilles or the wily Odysseus, quickly becomes a rigorous examination of voluntary versus involuntary wrongdoing, the nature of knowledge and power, and the unsettling claim that the man who does injustice on purpose is better than the one who does it by accident.
Deacon and the guests work through the dialogue’s sharp arguments and its surprising relevance. The conversation exposes the limits of treating virtue as mere knowledge plus power, raises the question of whether a just person might ever speak falsely for a good end, and serves as a genuine appetizer for the noble lie in the Republic.
Come listen—and discover why even Socrates, at the end, cannot agree with himself.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Hippias Minor and its Context
04:55 Setting the Scene: Hippias' Speech and Socrates' Role
09:22 Hippias' Boasts and Socrates' Irony
17:55 The Homeric Heroes: Achilles and Odysseus
25:04 Knowledge, Power, and the Art of Lying
36:15 The Distinction Between Capacity and Action
44:53 The Nature of Truth and Falsehood in Socratic Dialogue
46:43 Conclusion: What Socrates Reveals About Knowledge and Lies
02:39 Socrates' questioning of Hippias and the nature of virtue
04:55 The analogy of athletic competitions and the concept of justice
07:57 Socrates' discussion on voluntary and involuntary actions
12:05 The role of knowledge and capacity in moral actions
15:34 Hippias' understanding of justice and its relation to power
19:50 The concept of noble lies and pedagogical deception
25:04 The absence of forms and gods in the dialogue
30:14 The deeper meaning of Socratic ignorance and self-awareness
34:54 The significance of the question: Is justice knowledge or power?
39:51 Conclusion: What we learn about virtue, knowledge, and truth
Keywords
Plato’s Hippias Minor, Lesser Hippias, On the Lie, Hippias of Elis, Achilles and Odysseus, polytropos, voluntary and involuntary wrongdoing, voluntary liar, Socratic dialogue, aporetic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, noble lie, Republic, virtue is knowledge, knowledge and power, sophist, polymath, Eudicus, Embassy scene Iliad, teleology, Forms, Socratic irony, beneficial falsehood, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, Thomas Lackey, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, political philosophy, Allan Bloom, Roots of Political Philosophy.
Next week we discuss Plato's Ion!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Larson, and Dr. Grabowski discuss Plato's Lovers--a strange, short, and somewhat forgotten dialogue seeking the definition of philosophy.
We are celebrating ONE YEAR of our sister-company, The Ascent, a top 100 Substack on Christian spirituality.
Check out our WRITTEN GUIDE to the Lovers.
Plato’s Lovers is a short, strange, and easily overlooked dialogue that asks one of the most important questions in the entire Platonic corpus: What is philosophy?
Set in a grammar school where two rival older lovers—one an athlete, the other a cultured “know-it-all”—compete for the attention of younger boys discussing astronomy, the conversation quickly becomes an erotic and educational contest. Socrates enters the scene and quietly reorders the loves on display, showing that philosophy is not the accumulation of many things, that self-knowledge must come before any claim to rule, and that the true lover of the young is the one who leads their souls toward wisdom.
In this episode of Ascend, Dcn. Garlick is joined by Dr. Grabowski and Dr. Larson to unpack the dialogue’s subtle images of the soul, its playful yet serious treatment of eros, and its surprising role as an appetizer for the Republic.
The accompanying written guide offers a clear outline, preliminary questions, and dense Q&A—perfect for first-time readers, small groups, or anyone who wants to follow the argument more carefully.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Plato's 'The Lovers'
02:07 The setting and context of the dialogue
06:19 Who is the dialogue for? Audience and purpose
11:12 The erotic dimension of philosophy and education
16:10 The strangeness of the dialogue's setting
22:02 What is philosophy? The first definitions
27:36 The analogy of athletic training and measured learning
37:25 Usefulness, goodness, and self-knowledge
41:11 The political implications and the role of the philosopher
50:11 The dramatic and rhetorical aspects of the dialogue
57:32 The aporetic ending and its significance
Keywords
Plato’s Lovers, Rival Lovers, Erastai, what is philosophy, polymathy, much learning, Socratic dialogue, aporetic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, eros, erotic education, true love of the soul, tripartite soul, music and gymnastics, mousikē, gymnastikē, self-knowledge, know thyself, Socrates as third lover, Dionysius grammar school, anonymity in Plato, via negativa, aporia, preparation for the Republic, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, Platonic education, philosophy and politics, soul craft before statecraft.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick and Dr. Grabowski discuss a short, strange, and somewhat forgotten Platonic dialogue - The Hipparchus.
Check out our 15 Q&A Written Guide to the Hipparchus - great for small groups, homeschooling, autodidacts, and more!
What begins as a simple question—“What is the love of gain?”—quickly becomes a sharp and unsettling examination of the democratic soul. With no dramatic setting and a nameless interlocutor, the dialogue feels almost like overhearing Socrates in the marketplace, pressing an ordinary Athenian citizen on whether the desire for more is always shameful, or whether the soul might rightly love higher forms of gain: nobility, honor, and even wisdom itself.
What makes the conversation especially rewarding is how Socrates deliberately chooses a shocking example—the tyrant Hipparchus—and reimagines him as a lover of wisdom who sought to educate the city. In doing so, the dialogue quietly draws a parallel between the supposed tyrant and Socrates himself, both of whom attract the youth, challenge conventional order, and are ultimately rejected by a democratic culture that cannot tolerate excellence.
Along the way, listeners encounter an early sketch of the tripartite soul, a critique of the leveling effects of egalitarianism, and an aporetic ending that leaves the interlocutor “compelled rather than persuaded.” Brief, strange, and surprisingly profound, this episode is an excellent preparation for the Republic and a compelling invitation to reconsider what the soul truly seeks.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Plato's Hipparchus and its significance
01:54 Main themes: Love of gain, democracy, and wisdom
04:03 The character of Socrates and the setting of the dialogue
06:03 Hipparchus as a figure in political myth and history
07:58 Translation choices and interpretive approaches
10:00 The dialogue's structure and lack of dramatic setting
11:56 The definition of love of gain and greed
13:54 Socrates' critique of the love of worthless things
16:06 Hipparchus as a symbol of love of wisdom and fame
18:04 The political implications of Hipparchus' love of wisdom
20:00 The role of the democratic man and the love of gain
21:49 Socrates' pedagogical method and the nature of knowledge
23:52 The significance of the tyrant example and Hipparchus' myth
26:04 The character of the interlocutor and the setting of the dialogue
28:03 The introduction of Hipparchus and its layers of meaning
30:10 The political myth of Hipparchus and its revisionist history
32:00 Hipparchus' love of wisdom and the Herms
34:08 The allegory of knowledge and the tripartite soul
35:53 The love of gain as a love of wisdom and truth
38:08 The democratic man, shame, and the pursuit of philosophy
40:00 The role of philosophers in democratic society
42:01 The character of Socrates as a gadfly and teacher
43:48 The process of being compelled towards truth
45:54 Bloom's interpretation: Socrates as a political and epistemological figure
48:00 The significance of the short dialogues for understanding Socrates
50:12 The importance of humility and piety in reading Plato
51:57 Next week's discussion: Rival Lovers and the nature of wisdom
Key words: Plato Hipparchus, love of gain, philokerdia, Socratic dialogue, political philosophy, Alan Bloom, Thomas Pangle, Roots of Political Philosophy, democratic man, egalitarianism, leveling effect, tripartite soul, thumos, nous, appetitive soul, tyrant Hipparchus, Herms, Socrates as gadfly, aporetic dialogue, compulsion versus persuasion, preparation for Plato’s Republic, philosopher-king, Great Books podcast, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick, Frank Grabowski, classical education, ancient philosophy, Plato short dialogues, forgotten Platonic dialogues.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick invites you into a rich, methodical exploration of eros: the primal desire to satiate in beauty and be happy.
What if the restlessness in your soul—the endless craving for more beauty, more fulfillment, more rest—is not a curse but a divine gift?
Reclaiming Holy Eros https://www.theascent.io/p/reclaiming-holy-eros
Women as Icons of God, Beauty-itself https://www.theascent.io/p/the-beauty-of-woman-as-an-icon-of
Porn as a Poor Expression of Eros https://www.theascent.io/p/the-poor-erotics-of-porn
Far from the pornographic or puritan distortions that dominate modern thinking, this ancient concept runs like a golden thread through Homer, Hesiod, Plato’s Symposium, the Old and New Testaments, the Church Fathers, Dante, and even Pope Benedict XVI’s Deus Caritas Est. Deacon shows how eros is the very question of the human condition—an upward call that moves the soul from lesser beauties to greater ones until it finds rest in Beauty itself.
Drawing on his own spiritual labors, the host walks listeners through Plato’s ladder of love, the marital imagery of God’s covenant with Israel, the Song of Songs, Christ’s union with the Church, and the harmony between erotic ascent and the self-giving love of agape. Along the way he recovers a lost grammar of desire that is both natural and supernaturally elevated by grace—one that produces virtue, fecundity, and genuine theosis. The result is not abstract theory but a living path: a latticework upon which your own understanding of restlessness, happiness, and the call to become more Christlike can grow.
Whether you have wrestled with the restlessness of the heart, wondered how pagan wisdom and Christian revelation speak to one another, or simply want a deeper vision of love that orders the soul toward God, this conversation offers something rare: a beautiful, coherent tradition that answers the deepest questions of what it means to be human. Listen, and begin the ascent.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Eros and its significance in Christian spirituality
01:54 Eros in Homer, Hesiod, and the primordial cosmos
07:12 Plato's Symposium and the ladder of love
15:07 Eros in the Old Testament: Marriage and divine love
20:00 Eros in the New Testament: Christ and the Church
30:06 Eros and the ascent to divine beauty
40:11 Eros, virtue, and happiness in Christian thought
50:02 Eros and grace: the divine ascent and participation in God
01:00:10 The harmony of eros and agape in Christian life
01:10:08 Practical implications: loving God and neighbor through eros
01:20:01 Conclusion: recovering holy eros as the heart of human and divine love
Keywords
Holy Eros, Christian eros, Plato Symposium ladder of love, divine beauty, eros and agape, Deus Caritas Est Pope Benedict XVI, Song of Songs, marital imagery God and Israel, Christ bridegroom Church bride, Ephesians 5, St Augustine restless heart, Gregory of Nyssa, bridal mysticism, Bernard of Clairvaux, John of the Cross, Diotima, ascent to God, theosis, pagan and Christian erotics, Homer Hesiod Aristotle eros, natural and supernatural love, virtue and beauty, Ascend Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick, reclaiming holy eros, spiritual ascent, rest in God.