Makers & Mystics

Beauty is one of the most celebrated words in art and faith conversations, but it may also be one of the most misunderstood. Is beauty simply what pleases the eye, or is it something deeper? 
Can beauty exist alongside suffering, loss, and the grotesque? And what happens when we settle for beauty that comforts us while avoiding the realities that transform us?
What if beauty requires darkness, mystery, and even lament in order to reveal its deepest meaning? In this roundtable discussion, Stephen Roach and guests Corey Frey, Liv Ross, and Scott Aasman wrestle with beauty not as sentimentality or surface appeal, but as a force capable of holding together truth, goodness, suffering, and hope.
KEY TOPICS
Why beauty can feel inauthentic when it is removed from struggle
The original meaning of "glamour" as a veil designed to trap and deceive, and why that etymology still matters for artists today
How the three transcendentals — goodness, truth, and beauty — function like a trinity: remove one and the others collapse into vanity, brutality, or cover-up
What Edmund Burke and Kant meant by the sublime, and why terror and beauty belong together rather than apart
The real context behind Dostoevsky's phrase "beauty will save the world," drawn from The Idiot, and why stripping it from that argument changes everything
Thomas Kinkade's stated goal of painting a world where the Fall never happened, and what his private life and Andy Warhol quote reveal about the cost of bypassing Holy Saturday
Why form without substance is essentially pornographic, and how true beauty requires the material and the spiritual coming together
How artistic isolation stunts creative roots the way a tree grown in perfect conditions falls in the first storm and why community, friction, and disagreement strengthen both the artist and the work
About the Guests:
Corey Frey is a multidisciplinary artist, writer, and co-founder of The Well Collaborative, a community dedicated to creativity, curiosity, and culture. He lives in Maryland with his wife and continues to explore the intersections of art, faith, and imagination.
Liv Ross is an urban monk, poet, essayist, and Managing Editor of Traces Journal. Writing from the Ozarks, her work explores place, wonder, memory, and spiritual formation. Her first book, The Blackbird Ballad, was published by Solum Literary Press in 2026.
Scott Aasman is an award-winning illustrator, educator, and co-founder of Salt Cellar Arts, an arts-focused community for the spiritually attentive and creatively engaged. He lives in Hamilton, Ontario, with his wife and two children.
Resources Mentioned
Beauty Will Save the World by Brian Zahnd
The Idiot by Fyodor Dostoevsky
The Thought of the Heart and the Soul of the World by James Hillman
 Works by Flannery O'Connor
 Works by Cormac McCarthy
 Paintings of Thomas Kinkade
 Landscapes of J. M. W. Turner
Connect with Our Guests
Corey Frey
coreysfrey.com
Liv Ross
The Abbey of Curiosity Substack
The Blackbird Ballad
Scott Aasman
Instagram – San Illustration
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VISUAL ARTS RETREAT:  If you're looking for creative renewal, meaningful connection, and space to deepen your artistic practice,  I want to invite you to our upcoming retreat in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, July 10th through 12th.  Applications are open, but space is limited. 
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What does it cost an artist to tell the truth? Singer-songwriter Zan Fiskum has built her entire creative life around finding out. In this episode, host Stephen Roach sits down with Zan to explore how her most personal songs, about a toxic creative relationship, a fractured friendship, and a complicated bond with her mother, became anthems for strangers carrying the same quiet weight.
This is a conversation about the craft behind vulnerability: how to write specifically enough to be honest, and broadly enough to let the listener find themselves inside your story. If you've ever wondered whether your most painful experiences are worth putting into a song, this episode answers that question with a resounding yes.

Key Takeaways
The particular is the universal. Writing from your most specific, personal experience doesn't isolate your audience; it invites them in. The goal is to leave enough space in the lyric for listeners to find their own story.
Vulnerability on stage is a form of service. Sharing something raw and real can give your audience permission to feel things they didn't think they were allowed to feel, and sometimes, to take action they've been avoiding for years.
Faith doesn't require religious language. Drawing on C.S. Lewis, Zan articulates a conviction shared by many artists of faith: we don't need more Christian people making Christian art. We need Christians making art, beautiful, honest, human art.
Your constraints can become your creative fuel. Whether it's a commission, a theme, or a question crowdsourced from strangers on the internet, working within limits can push you toward material you'd never find on your own.

Resources Mentioned
Zan Fiskum's album — Forbidden Art (available on all major streaming platforms) 
Makers and Mystics — "The Gift of the Elders" episode — A previous episode featuring Petrobas from New Zealand on how indigenous cultures honor their elders
Zan's social media:
Instagram: @zanfiskum
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Support the show
VISUAL ARTS RETREAT:  If you're looking for creative renewal, meaningful connection, and space to deepen your artistic practice,  I want to invite you to our upcoming retreat in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, July 10th through 12th.  Applications are open, but space is limited. 
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Beauty As Survival: Breath, Embodiment, and The First Instrument
A conversation with Whitney Lynn
In this episode, I sit down with embodiment coach, creative director, and longtime Breath and The Clay collaborator Whitney Lynn to explore the intersections of breath, beauty, embodiment, and the creative life.
Whitney’s work centers on “returning the body to the body,” helping people come home to themselves in a culture that so often pulls us toward dissociation. Together, we explore how breath is far more than a biological necessity; it is a sacred creative force, a pathway into nervous system regulation, healing, and flow. Through breathwork, we discuss how the body becomes not an obstacle to spiritual life, but our first instrument of artistry, intuition, and connection.
This conversation continues on themes from our series on The Pace of Beauty, expanding the idea that beauty is not a luxury or superficial pursuit, but a necessary force for survival. Whitney offers insight into how beauty regulates us, heals trauma, and awakens us to deeper intimacy with ourselves, others, and God.
Together, we also confront the inherited fear of the body present in many faith spaces, tracing how distorted ideas around embodiment have often disconnected spirituality from physical presence. Whitney invites us into a richer vision—one where the body is not something to escape, but a sacred vessel through which creativity, healing, and divine encounter unfold.
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VISUAL ARTS RETREAT:  If you're looking for creative renewal, meaningful connection, and space to deepen your artistic practice,  I want to invite you to our upcoming retreat in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, July 10th through 12th.  Applications are open, but space is limited. 
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Make Your Home In This Luminous Dark
A conversation with James K. A. Smith

In this episode, I sit down with philosopher and author James K. A. Smith (Jamie) to explore the mystical tradition as a living pathway into deeper faith, creativity, and presence.
Jamie shares how his journey into mysticism began not through abstract theology, but through personal crisis, an experience of depression that exposed the limits of intellect and certainty. From there, voices like St. John of the Cross and Thomas Merton opened up a new way of understanding faith, not as mastery, but as surrender; not as knowing, but as unknowing.
Together, we explore what it means to “make your home in the luminous dark,” to embrace mystery as a space of transformation rather than failure. We also dive deeply into the surprising role of art, especially contemporary and “difficult” art, as a powerful and often overlooked gateway into contemplation. Rather than delivering clear messages, great art invites us into encounter, disorientation, and wonder, forming in us the very capacities needed for a mystical life.
This conversation is an invitation to let go of control, to trust the deeper currents of love beneath reality, and to discover how both mysticism and art can open us to the presence of God in ways that certainty never could.

JOIN US FOR BOOK CLUB! Every Tuesday at 8 pm EST in June 2026, we will be reading James's book online in our Patreon community! We'd love to have you with us. Visit patreon.com/makersandmystics to RSVP. 
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Support the show
VISUAL ARTS RETREAT:  If you're looking for creative renewal, meaningful connection, and space to deepen your artistic practice,  I want to invite you to our upcoming retreat in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, July 10th through 12th.  Applications are open, but space is limited. 
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What can ancient stories teach us about creativity, courage, and our own place in the modern world? 
In this episode, Stephen Roach welcomes poet and priest Malcolm Guite back to Makers & Mystics to explore his poetic retelling of King Arthur and the Holy Grail. Malcolm reflects on how these stories shaped him from childhood and why myth still carries moral and spiritual weight in a disenchanted age.
Together, they discuss the role of storytelling in recovering a sacramental vision of the world. This conversation is an invitation to re-enchantment—to slow down, commit to your craft, and take your place in the great unfolding story.
IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL HEAR ABOUT
Why Arthurian legend endures: its moral and spiritual resonance
Taking up the tale: how myth becomes personal meaning
Re-enchantment: seeing the world with wonder in an age of distraction
The value of slow, faithful creative practice
Send us Fan Mail
Support the show
VISUAL ARTS RETREAT:  If you're looking for creative renewal, meaningful connection, and space to deepen your artistic practice,  I want to invite you to our upcoming retreat in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, July 10th through 12th.  Applications are open, but space is limited. 
Sign Up for Our Newsletter! http://eepurl.com/g49Ks1
Give a one-time donation https://buy.stripe.com/9AQeYj7431fD12waEO
Join the Makers & Mystics Creative Collective https://www.patreon.com/c/makersandmystics